63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 12:18 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Hitler discriminated against Jews, how bloody awful of him!

Whatever it is that you mean by that first sentence of yours, does it follow that the same fate, again whatever it means, should fall upon Americans because they have stolen freedom wealth and lives from so many others, far far beyond what Israel has done.

Do you understand the word hypocrite, CI?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 12:18 pm
@izzythepush,
They like to talk in terms of extremes - because that's all they have to support their ignorance. It doesn't seem to matter that they're proven wrong almost 100% of the time.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 12:20 pm
@izzythepush,
Izzytheliar: God you're stupid. Don't you ever check things out before you post your bullshit?

I see that you don't have an understanding of the word hypocrite either, Iz.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 12:25 pm
@Foofie,
It is.

Is that a good excuse for the USA? Why weren't the Nazis allowed their freedom after slaughtering six plus million Jews? Is that too no big deal, Foof?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 12:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,

Re: Advocate (Post 5538614)
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

I guess Jews learned that lesson very well!

*******************************

Evidently, Americans too, CI.

You really should look up 'hypocrite' in a dictionary.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 12:33 pm
@izzythepush,
In any event it shows your statement to be false.

*******************************

Izzy is an expert on making false statements.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 12:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

Jews are disenfranchised when they treat other minorities as they have been discriminated against under Hitler. It seems Jews have not really learned anything from their own experience.


Many Israelis are ungrateful. Israel was the only country that kept trading with South Africa after the world had imposed sanctions. Israel gave military equipment to SA to keep the black South Africans in their place.

The US has given Israel the most advanced military weapons as well as assuring they have the edge over their enemies in the region. However, in 2006, the Israeli/Lebanon conflict involving Hezbollah, Israel was the loser. Hezbollah won that war and the IDF left so hurriedly they left a lot of their equipment behind. Long after Hezbollah had chased the IDF out of Lebanon, rockets kept reigning down on Israel. My campus erupted in joy! At long last Israel, it seemed, had met its equal. During that conflict in Lebanon, Israel used a toxic substance called White phosphorus which caused severe burns when coming in contact with the skin. There were quite a number of Lebanese citizens with severe burns....signs of the WP chemical on their skin. For once Condoleezza Rice, belatedly, spoke out harshly to Israel saying they were not supposed to use that chemical on humans. Israel was desperate to win the 2006 war, but alas! Just wasn't meant to be.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 12:45 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

oralloy wrote:

Eventually the Palestinians will all have to be deported to Gaza.


Perhaps, the euphemism used by England, when they sent people to Australia, would be better? "Transportation."
This euphemism actually is a legal terminus technicus. (Totally correct 'penal transporting - as it was used with the convicts transported to Australia.) It has been used for own nationals.
Deportation is the expulsion of foreign nationals.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 01:13 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Credit where credit's due, but the Israeli Government of 1964 was very different from some of the ones that followed.

Quote:
The Israeli Foreign Ministry tried to convince South Africa's apartheid regime not to seek the death penalty in Nelson Mandela's 1964 trial, newly released documents reveal.


According to the documents, which were declassified by the Israel State Archives on Sunday, Israel's stance resulted in a letter to the South African government urging it to negotiate with Mandela and the other defendants in the trial. The letter also criticized the regime's segregationist policies.


In 1964, after Mandela and other members of the African National Congress were indicted for sabotage and conspiracy, then-Foreign Minister Golda Meir urged Israel's charge d'affaires in Cape Town to express Israel's displeasure with the trial. Meir also praised Mandela's now-famous speech denouncing the trial, saying it was "a great performance that put on display immense courage and voiced the pain of millions of Africans."


As a result of Meir's effort, the Israeli Foreign Ministry convinced philosopher Martin Buber and Israeli author Haim Hazaz to send a letter to the government of South Africa to protest the regime's crackdown on the ANC.


"Talk to them. Listen to them. They have something to say. You will not silence their voices by hanging them. ... From the land of Israel, we ask you to assert your faith in the nobility of man, whatever the color of his skin. And if you 'do unto others' in accordance with this faith, the future is yours, and theirs -- and the world's," Buber and Hazaz wrote.


The head of the Israeli mission in Cape Town also sent a cable to Israel detailing the dire financial straits Mandela's wife, Winnie, was facing.


http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=13893
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 01:16 pm
@izzythepush,
They sure did turn 180 degrees from where they used to be.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 01:19 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Israel was the only country that kept trading with South Africa after the world had imposed sanctions. Israel gave military equipment to SA to keep the black South Africans in their place.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And you suggest that you are in academia , MiT .

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/US_SAfrica_wars.html

Secret ColIaboration:

U.S. and South Africa Foment Terrorist Wars

By Sean Gervasi

Covert Action Quarterly Fall 1984





South Africa has been conducting an undeclared terrorist war on the Front-line States, and in particular on Angola Lesotho, Mozambique. Tanzania and Zimbabwe, for more than three years. This war has been waged across an entire subcontinent, using every means of modern warfare from armored divisions and squadrons of bombers to economic sabotage, subversion and assassination.

Moreover, the Reagan Administration is a willing partner in the secret war in southern Africa. It has thrown the weight and power of the United States behind South Africa's campaign to destabilize the Front-line States. South Africa and the U.S. are now full partners in an almost invisible war to change the political balance in the region and to preserve and reinforce the principal institutions of the apartheid system.

Indeed, from its inception, it was clear that the Reagan Administration would seek to preserve the status quo in South Africa as part of an anti-Socialist crusade, just as it announced it would do in El Salvador. It has therefore pursued a "two track" policy, revealing its commitment to South Africa and its antagonism to radical change, but concealing many of its actions in support of South Africa's war. The war against the Front-line States has been much more complex than many observers have suspected. And the Central Intelligence Agency has inevitably played an important role in it, carrying out a second, secret ''track" of U.S. policy, coordinating various programs of covert warfare and undertaking important operations.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 02:10 pm
@izzythepush,
Your article is an interesting one, Izzy. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
JTT
 
  2  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 02:23 pm
@Moment-in-Time,

I'm sure, given that you are such an open minded academic, that you will also like this article. No thanks necessary.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/Israel_SAfrica.html


Israel and South Africa

excerpted from the book

Israeli Foreign Policy

by Jane Hunter

South End Press, 1987




History

lsrael's ties with South Africa seem to be especially disturbing to many who follow Israel's international activities. Perhaps it is natural that Israel has been castigated more harshly for its arms sales to South Africa than for its sales to other countries: first, because there has been for a decade an arms embargo against South Africa; and second, because of the unsurpassed criminality of the white regime and the uses to which it puts the Israeli-supplied weapons.

It has also been said that those arms sales are understandable, given the striking similarities between the two countries in their day-to-day abuse and repression of their subject populations, South African blacks and Palestinians under Israeli rule; in their operating philosophies of apartheid and Zionism; and in their similar objective situations: "the only two Western nations to have established themselves in a predominantly nonwhite part of the world," as a South African Broadcasting Corporation editorial put it. That understanding, however, is somewhat superficial, and the focus on similarities of political behavior has somewhat obscured the view of the breadth and depth of the totality of Israeli-South African relations and their implications.

Israel's relations with South Africa are different than its interactions with any of its other arms clients. That Israel gave South Africa its nuclear weapons capability underscores the special nature of Tel Aviv's relations with the white minority government and begins to describe it - a full-fledged, if covert, partnership based on the determination of both countries to continue as unrepentant pariahs and to help each other avoid the consequences of their behavior.

***

Arms industry

Nuclear Apprentice

There are few areas where the respective needs and advantages of Israel and South Africa dovetailed so perfectly as in the field of nuclear cooperation.

"The most powerful reason for Israeli willingness to bear the undesirable consequences of expanded and more open trade with South Africa may be her desire to acquire material necessary to manufacture nuclear weapons," wrote a military analyst in 1980.' To that must be added Israel's great desire to test the nuclear weapons it already had, and the attractions of South Africa's vast territory and proximity to even vaster uninhabited spaces-the Atlantic and Indian Oceans.

Then at the point in its nuclear development where it was fashioning sophisticated bombs (devices which use less nuclear material but have infinitely greater explosive force than the "primitive" bomb dropped by the U.S. on Hiroshima), Israel would find it particularly helpful to observe the performance, explosive force and fallout of a detonated weapon.

Since 1984, Israel had been operating a plutonium extraction plant in a secret underground bunker at Dimona in the Negev Desert. Built by the French in the late 1950s, the Dimona plant also included facilities for manufacturing atomic bomb components. At the time of the 1976 accords, Israel was preparing to build an adjoining plant for the extraction of lithium 6, tritium and deuterium, materials required for sophisticated thermonuclear weapons.

Israel's reasons for devoting what had to have been a significant portion of its scant resources to such an ambitious nuclear weapons program - nuclear experts have recently ranked it as the world's sixth nuclear power, after the U.S., the USSR, Britain, France and China - have been variously offered as the desire to develop a credible deterrent to attack by its neighbors and the desire to substitute that deterrent for at least part of the costly conventional arsenal that Israel, with one of the world's most powerful military forces, maintains, and also (with much less frequency) as an "umbrella" over a partial withdrawal from the occupied territories.

***

The South Africans began teaching the lessons of Israel's 1967 war at their maneuver school, and Israeli advisers began teaching the Boers the arts of suppressing a captive population and keeping hostile neighbors off balance...

The white government's practice of domestic counterinsurgency l combines outright military brutality with the extensive use of informers and collaborators. It is impossible to know how many refinements of these age-old techniques have been borrowed from the Israelis' occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights. The Israeli system of village leagues is obviously comparable to the hated town councils imposed on segregated townships by the apartheid government. The collective punishment employed by the Israelis, such as the destruction of a whole family's home when one of its members is arrested as a suspect in an act of resistance, has lately been matched by the recent South African practices of sealing off townships, and assaulting entire funeral processions. What is perhaps more salient is the South African victims' perceptions of Israel's involvement in their oppression and how readily that perception is communicated...

***

The Frontline States

The South Africans noted that their May, 1983 aerial attack (dubbed Operation Shrapnel) on Mozambique's capital, Maputo, was analogous to Israel's attack on Beirut the previous summer. one analyst, Joseph Hanlon, believes that one of South Africa's objectives in the attack was to see how its version of events would play in the media. It was received very well indeed, according to Hanlon, with the Western press accepting South Africa's claim that its attack was in "retaliation" for an ANC attack and that ANC "bases" were hit.

Instead, the South African Air Force hit a child-care center and private houses with "special fragmentation rockets," leaving 6 dead and 40 wounded. This follows the Israeli practice in Lebanon of speaking about PLO installations while civilians are the actual targets, and attacking with particularly heinous anti-personnel weapons-cluster bombs and phosphorous bombs.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 04:01 pm
Izzy, Ms. Piggy loves ya, and would like to wallow in the fillth with you.

You can both practice your lying and distortion, as well as your vicious and stupid attacks on others.
Foofie
 
  2  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 04:23 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
In our lifetime there were/are people that do think of Jews as a "nation" within a nation. That was the propaganda from the Nazis, as to why German Jews did not belong in Germany. So now Jews have their own nation, and much of the world is finding a reason to disenfranchise them from it. Do you see the morbid humor?
I'm not involved in any activity of the Hebrew University, Foofie. You should ask them. (And you could have done it since 2000, because those polls are since that time.)


But, you are disseminating specific information. You are choosing to ignore my comparison above. It is quite relevant, since Jews were considered an alien presence in Europe, and now considered an alien presence in their own country. You still do not see the morbid humor, at best?
Foofie
 
  2  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 04:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Jews are disenfranchised when they treat other minorities as they have been discriminated against under Hitler. It seems Jews have not really learned anything from their own experience.


Yes they have. The lesson being that if they live in a Gentile country, they shouldn't be surprised if they are the target of anti-Semitism, since that is apparently a mentality that is as immortal as a cancer cell. They also learned that Germany is alive and well, rather than being dissolved for fomenting two world wars in the twentieth century. That lesson implies that might may not make right, but it might ensure survival.
Foofie
 
  2  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 04:36 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Given that Israel views the life of one Israeli soldier as being worth that of 1027 Palestinians, what possible motivation is there for killing a prisoner?



The correct interpretation, given that the prisoner exchange was only accepted if 1,027 prisoners were released for one Israeli soldier, is that the Palestineans consider 1,027 lives of their prisoners equal to the value of one Israeli prisoner. You had it backwards.

Obviously, you consider the Israelis devaluing the lives of Palestineans, by this exchange ratio, rather than applaud the valuing of their own. I guess the number of Brits slaughtered in British past "adventures" warrants your seeing it from your perspective, rather than applaud a government that values EACH SOLDIER AND HIS FAMILY.

I can always count on a Gentile to get it wrong, based on early brain washing in an anti-Semitic culture.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 04:41 pm
@Foofie,
You people over-use anti-Semitism to the point it has no meaning.

But, you know what? We've all learned that there are Jewish Jerks like you!
Foofie
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 04:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You people over-use anti-Semitism to the point it has no meaning.

But, you know what? We've all learned that there are Jewish Jerks like you!


Why can't I be a "jerk" without the reference to Jewishness? Once you add the word "Jewish" you are just making people think that you are not really part of mainstream society, in my opinion, since mainstream society keeps its pejorative opinions about Jews hidden these days. Perhaps, you don't identify with mainstream society on the left coast?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jan, 2014 05:19 pm
@Foofie,
That's not the correct interpretation, that's your interpretation. Israel is holding thousands of Palestinians prisoner not the other way round.

Can't you just say I'm mistaken without using the term gentile?
 

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