Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I guess i'll have to point this out to Oralloy every time he asserts, in his arrogant and snotty manner, that he deals only in facts. This is a quote of the post in which i pointed out that he had claimed for Jews territory which was never historically "theirs."

As I pointed out the first time you "quoted" it, you only quoted a narrowly selected part of my reply.

My full reply, without the selective quoting, is quite clear that the only thing I am calling the Jewish homeland is the West Bank itself.

Setanta wrote:

As i have pointed out again and again, and, obviously in this post which i have just quoted, you arbitrarily and capriciously decide to assert a Jewish "homeland" claim while ignoring all other claims.

Nothing arbitrary or capricious about my pointing out basic history.

And "ignoring the claims of Muslim and Roman/Xian invaders" (claims which have zero validity) is not "ignoring all claims".

Setanta wrote:

You do not reliably deal in fact.

Yes I do. Funny how you can never point out any fact that I've gotten wrong.

Not that I'm claiming infallibility or anything.

I guess I should add that "claiming that I said something that I never said" does not count as pointing out a fact that I've gotten wrong.

Setanta wrote:

You do make claims from which the facts force you to retreat.

Well, if I did see that I was wrong, I would of course change my position.

There is little chance of coming up with any facts that contradict my position however, as my position is already fully in agreement with all the facts.

Setanta wrote:

Events like their most recent invasion of the Lebanon must be an embarrassment for you--unless, of course, you just make up more "facts" in order to claim that that was a success.

I don't need to make up any facts to view it as a success. I was quite happy with the level of damage inflicted on Lebanon. And they seemed to learn not to start any more wars with Israel.

If Lebanon forgets their lesson in the future, it can easily be reapplied by reducing their entire country to rubble all over again.

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Not content with attacks on Palestinians by the Israeli state, and the Army, individual Jewish settler groups attack and rob their neighbours.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/24/west-bank-olive-harvest-attacks

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@oralloy,

You can dodge all you want, but you can't change facts, as you seem to want to hammer on all the time. I pointed out that Israel has occupied the south of the Lebanon and the Golan Heights, and characterized that as stealing land. I didn't mention the west bank of the Jordan River at all. Your response was that it is not stealing to repossess stolen property. Now you're trying to disavow what you clearly wrote. I offer that as evidence of just how much bullshit there is in you claim only to eve deal in facts.

You aren't pointing out basic history. You willfully ignore what i've pointed out all along, which is that other people lived there, too, before the Romans ran the Jews out, and after that had been done. I didn't mention any claims of Muslim and Roman/Xian invaders. You have put that in quotes, implying that you are quoting me. That's a lie, and that makes you a liar. You steadfastly ignore the valid points that i have made--that Bedu have lived there as long as or longer than the Jews, that Aramaeans lived there, that Hellenistic people lived there (from many ethnic origins).

It is arbitrary and capricious for you to decide that any claims other than those made by modern Zionist Jews have no validity. Once again we see you offering your opinions while conceitedly claiming that you only deal in fact. Those aren't facts, they're opinions.

I've pointed out fact after fact that you've gotten wrong, notably but not limited to your "repossess stolen property" bullshit.

Your position is opinion based. It is not a fact that Jews have an exclusive claim to the west bank of the Jordan River, it is an opinion. Furthermore, Israeli governments have agreed to prevent settlements there, and then failed to keep their word. They negotiate in bad faith. Those are facts--but facts that you never want to visit.

I'm sure you were quite happy to see thousands of Lebanese non-combatants killed and wounded. It's consistent with the character of the things you post here. Of course, the IDF did not put Hezbollah out of business, they did not secure the release of the IDF members whose seizure was the casus belli, and the entire operations was conducted in a ham-handed manner, even to the point where IDF units did not have sufficient water and rations.

But by god, they sure slaughtered lots of Lebanese men, women and children. Let's have a big round of applause for the IDF.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

It's racist, dipshit, because you attempt to excoriate an entire people by using an idiotic stereotype (people paintong themselves blue). Jews aren't a race either, but if i attempted to promote a stereotype that all Jews are greedy, no one would have any trouble seeing that the intent is racist.

You do this all the time. I don't condemn Jews for being Jews, nor do i promote any stereotypes about them. But you constantly make these idiotic attempts to insult me by references to Kelts and to Catholics, like your last attempt in which you implied that i had been educated in a parochial school.

You're pathetic, you're bigoted and frankly, you're not very bright, either.

Painting oneself blue in ancient times is not pejorative. It may only means that the occasional hubris I have observed from some of their modern day descendants may be inappropriate. It does not mean I am making an extrapolation that those who are descended, from those who painted themselves blue, are somehow not equal to the descendants of an ancient "bandit."

And, if you saw my comments without any prejudging, you would have seen that I was complimenting you on a possible parochial school education (based on some relatively old post commenting, I thought, on Jesuit teachers). But, it was only meant as an attempt at humility, since I was just in the public education system getting proselytized in the ways of the Protestants. You react to my posts with such quick antagonisms, I am afraid to even ask you "not to get your Irish up." Why are you so sensitive to any references to your ethnic identity? I listen on this forum to all sorts of pejoratives about Jews, be they American or Israeli, since ethnic stereotypes transcend national identity.

To be perfectly candid, I have nothing against Irish folks. I do find it sort of unrealistic though, in that I believe a few Irish (Americans), I have met in the past, believe that the Irish "have arrived" (socially), perhaps because the Kennedys are Irish, or that there are Irish today that have a few bucks and top positions in large corporations. Well, as most Jews understand, social status is an exclusive WASP game, and if one is not a WASP, "yer out."

And, I certainly have nothing against Catholics. But, there too, there is occasionally a lack of realism, in my opinion, since the country's direction will, for a long time I believe, be determined by Protestants.

I feel so good now that I have got that off of my chest. Posting to you is very therapeutic.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

...Jews aren't a race either, but if i attempted to promote a stereotype that all Jews are greedy, no one would have any trouble seeing that the intent is racist.

Au contraire. Many folks would not "have any trouble seeing that the" statement was true in their own opinion.

The joke is that many Jews of this modern era are not "greedy" over money. But, in my own opinion their might be some "collective" greed over something else. But, I'll be damned if I say as to what, since that could then result in another reply that cannot accept my opinions with aplomb.

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@Foofie,

I react to your posts with quick contempt. I'm not surprised that you characterize it as anger, because that allows you to portray me as motivated by emotion rather than knowledge or logic. It's a pathetic trick, as is the case with almost every argument you post.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I react to your posts with quick contempt. I'm not surprised that you characterize it as anger, because that allows you to portray me as motivated by emotion rather than knowledge or logic. It's a pathetic trick, as is the case with almost every argument you post.

It would only be a "trick" if you could read my mind, and determine what I was thinking. I do not think you are motivated by emotion. I think you are motivated by "territoriality." In my opinion, you might like to be the definitive voice on many a thread. In effect, I see your less than calm replies as behavior modification efforts, to dissuade any rivals to your position as wise poster numero uno. Just my opinion.

And see, I did not make any accusations that you might be motivated by any pugnaciousness of a bygone era's stereotype. You are a quite rational person, in my opinion. Try to take that as a compliment.

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@Foofie,

Quote:

Well, as most Jews understand, social status is an exclusive WASP game,

This is certainly not true in Britain.
I would be most surprised if American society were much differerent in that respect.
Of course, this is not to say that anti-semitism does not occur among the upper classes in England, it unfortunately does.

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@Foofie,

My replies are calm. You're projecting your desire to categorize in a manner which in fact suggests that i am not reacting in a logical manner. This time, rather than alleging anger, you're alleging that i'm an intellectual bully. You're a mess.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Well, as most Jews understand, social status is an exclusive WASP game, and if one is not a WASP, "yer out."

You're joking, right? (Or, you really have no idea about the social states of Jews - within the Jewish society, today and in history - outside your soup bowl.)

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Foofie, I guess Walter put you in your place. After all, Walter is an expert in the culture of Jews, among many, many, other things. Most anti-Semites are.

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You're a scum bag, Advocate. There is absolutely no reason to characterize Walter as an anti-Semite. This is a topic about which you get hysterical. You lose whatever tenuous grip on reason you may have had as soon as the subject is Israel.

You disgust me.

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@Setanta,

Who cares what you think. I am unimpressed with obnoxious assholes like you. Moreover, I love it when you waste your time attacking me. Walter never has a good, honest, word for Israel. Were he alive when Hitler was alive, he would have been a good Nazi.

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@Advocate,

That's a pretty huge leap. Is Israel's government beyond contempt?

A
R
T

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@Advocate,

I see that character assassination (without providing a shred of evidence) is still your only rhetorical weapon. Classic one trick pony . . .

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Perhaps the genius Advocate can link us to posts of Walter's which demonstrate that he hates Jews. I mean, if what this gobshite claims is true, it should be simplicity itself to provide the evidence.

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@Advocate,

Advocate, you insult all of us when you make a disgusting statement about Walter. I happen to know Walter personally and I strongly disagree with your opinion of him.

"Walter never has a good, honest, word for Israel. Were he alive when Hitler was alive, he would have been a good Nazi."

I happen to be a supporter of Israel but I don't like it's theft of Palestine land and the treatment of their people, not including Hamas fighters.

Your behavior has crossed the decency line. Shame, shame! You don't fit into A2K and I wish you would depart.

BBB

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today i looked at the map, and tried to say the pledge of allegiance, really difficult, considering i'm not an american, and don't really know the pledge

i could however still say the phrase posed in the original question

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

You can dodge all you want, but you can't change facts, as you seem to want to hammer on all the time.

Pointing out that I didn't say what you claim I said is neither dodging nor attempting to change facts.

Setanta wrote:

I pointed out that Israel has occupied the south of the Lebanon and the Golan Heights, and characterized that as stealing land. I didn't mention the west bank of the Jordan River at all. Your response was that it is not stealing to repossess stolen property.

Nope. My response was quite a bit more than that.

Setanta wrote:

Now you're trying to disavow what you clearly wrote.

Nope. I'm only disavowing your misleading partial quote of what I wrote.

I do not disavow my reply as it exists in its entirety.

Setanta wrote:

I offer that as evidence of just how much bullshit there is in you claim only to eve deal in facts.

I offer the fact that your only "evidence" is a misleading partial quote of me, as evidence that all your claims about me are untrue.

Setanta wrote:

You aren't pointing out basic history.

Yes I am.

Setanta wrote:

You willfully ignore what i've pointed out all along, which is that other people lived there, too, before the Romans ran the Jews out,

No. I did not ignore that.

Setanta wrote:

and after that had been done. I didn't mention any claims of Muslim and Roman/Xian invaders. You have put that in quotes, implying that you are quoting me. That's a lie, and that makes you a liar.

Actually, the reason for the quotes was so that people with limited reading comprehension would not misunderstand the structure of the sentence.

Setanta wrote:

You steadfastly ignore the valid points that i have made--that Bedu have lived there as long as or longer than the Jews, that Aramaeans lived there, that Hellenistic people lived there (from many ethnic origins).

Nope. Didn't ignore those.

Setanta wrote:

It is arbitrary and capricious for you to decide that any claims other than those made by modern Zionist Jews have no validity.

Again, the only claims that I am saying have no validity are those of the Muslim and Roman/Xian invaders.

Setanta wrote:

I've pointed out fact after fact that you've gotten wrong, notably but not limited to your "repossess stolen property" bullshit.

Nope. You cannot point out a single fact I've gotten wrong anywhere.

That said, I think it would derail the thread if we hashed out all the points on other threads that you mistakenly believe I am somehow wrong on. Or if I pointed out all the things that you've gotten wrong on other threads.

Setanta wrote:

Your position is opinion based. It is not a fact that Jews have an exclusive claim to the west bank of the Jordan River, it is an opinion. Furthermore, Israeli governments have agreed to prevent settlements there, and then failed to keep their word. They negotiate in bad faith. Those are facts--but facts that you never want to visit.

We've seen what happens when Israeli governments negotiate in good faith. They get a wave of Palestinians murdering Israeli children until the negotiations collapse, and then they get people falsely claiming that they never negotiated in good faith.

It is true that Israel is not taking current negotiations seriously. But that is because the current round of negotiations are nor worth taking seriously.

Setanta wrote:

I'm sure you were quite happy to see thousands of Lebanese non-combatants killed and wounded. It's consistent with the character of the things you post here. Of course, the IDF did not put Hezbollah out of business, they did not secure the release of the IDF members whose seizure was the casus belli, and the entire operations was conducted in a ham-handed manner, even to the point where IDF units did not have sufficient water and rations.

Well, putting a guerrilla operation out of business is easier said than done, especially with conventional military forces.

And as I recall the IDF members were actually murdered in the initial attack, and were already dead through the entire war. (I didn't double check that, so I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.)

I certainly don't fault the IDF for failing to achieve the impossible.

Setanta wrote:

But by god, they sure slaughtered lots of Lebanese men, women and children. Let's have a big round of applause for the IDF.

Now THAT I can agree with.

Lebanon does seem to have learned their lesson. (Knock on wood.)

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@BumbleBeeBoogie,

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

I happen to be a supporter of Israel but I don't like it's theft of Palestine land and the treatment of their people, not including Hamas fighters.

It's hardly theft. Setting aside for a minute the absurdity of the Palestinian claim to the land, that land *would have been returned already* had the Palestinians only been willing to stop murdering people.

It is hardly Israel's fault that, given a choice between having their own state and murdering people, the Palestinians prefer to murder people.

And likewise, all Israel is doing is defending themselves from Palestinian aggression. If the Palestinians don't like that treatment, all they have to do is make peace.

I suppose if I don't address the attack on Walter, my silence will be taken as approval. It looks like this fight between Advocate and Walter is carried over from other threads that I've never read. And Advocate feels Walter said something deeply unfair about Israel, but I don't know where or what that is. But I will say I've never seen Walter say anything that I'd call anti-Semitism.

1 Reply

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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