Deliver me from fundamentalist religious fruits.
But Jesus was solid flesh and blood and seen by thousands, he arrived on earth and said- "I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going..I'll tell you things hidden since the creation of the world" (John 8:14,Matt 13:35)
so I'd call that "Alien Contact", wouldn't you?..




InfraBlue wrote:
Ironically, the State of Israel will eventually become Arab within a few generations seeing as how the Arab population is growing faster than the Jewish one.
In the end it will have been much ado about nothing, or at the very least, very little.
That might be what liberal media promulgate; however, over 50% of Israel are Sephardic Jews from the Arab countries (post 1957). They too have large families, having lived in those Arab countries for the last 3,500 years, or so. I am not so sure of your prediction; however, it can be a shade of gray, so to speak, like the WASP's of the U.S. (smaller percentage of the population, but still the movers and shakers).
But, it's nice to know you are so conscious of what Jews are doing (read sarcastic).
You are funny in my opinion. You are calling the desire to survive beyond the anti-Semitism that seems to have moved from Nazi Germany to the Middle East "indignation"? You seem, in my opinion, to wrap your anti-Israel rhetoric in a veneer of intellectualism.
How did you first begin to see Israel from your perspective? I mean, do you not care that Jews barely survived the Holocaust in Western Europe? Note that Germany has the U.S. and NATO to protect it, and they were the perpetrators of the atrocities. Good Germans. But Israel, for wanting to survive as a haven for the Holocaust survivors, and somewhere that Sephardic Jews (Arab Jews) can live without being second class citizens, as they did in Arab countries, are bad Jews?
O.K. you are not an anti-Semite.
But, you might have some other problem with your thinking ability?
I think it might be that you see Israel as only a country for European Jews. It is really a country where Arab Jews and Ethiopean Jews can, for the first time in 3,500 years not be second class citizens. They will out populate the European Jews, and through the wonder of a universal draft will develop a mixed breed to Israeli, that is already way under way (aka, Sabra).
You seem to be closed minded, in my opinion. Who gave you your perspective? It really does not sound philo-Semitic. You seem to offer no compromises. So, in my opinion, you are not siding with the Palestineans, but the Arab perspective of eradicating Israel, or am I wrong?
InfraBlue wrote:"Jewish" indignation doesn't justify the Zionists' repression of the Palestinian peoples.
No such repression.
oralloy wrote:InfraBlue wrote:"Jewish" indignation doesn't justify the Zionists' repression of the Palestinian peoples.
No such repression.
Says you.
Says everyone who isn't an anti-Semitic scumbag.
"...The charge that criticism of Israel is implicitly anti-Semitic -- is regarded in Israel and the United States as Israel's trump card. If it has been played more insistently and aggressively in recent years, that is because it is now the only card left. The habit of tarring any foreign criticism with the brush of anti-Semitism is deeply ingrained in Israeli political instincts: Ariel Sharon used it with characteristic excess but he was only the latest in a long line of Israeli leaders to exploit the claim. David Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir did no different. But Jews outside of Israel pay a high price for this tactic. Not only does it inhibit their own criticisms of Israel for fear of appearing to associate with bad company, but it encourages others to look upon Jews everywhere as de facto collaborators in Israel's misbehavior. When Israel breaks international law in the occupied territories, when Israel publicly humiliates the subject populations whose land it has seized -- but then responds to its critics with loud cries of "anti-Semitism" -- it is in effect saying that these acts are not Israeli acts, they are Jewish acts: The occupation is not an Israeli occupation, it is a Jewish occupation, and if you don't like these things it is because you don't like Jews. In many parts of the world this is in danger of becoming a self-fulfilling assertion: Israel's reckless behavior and insistent identification of all criticism with anti-Semitism is now the leading source of anti-Jewish sentiment in Western Europe and much of Asia..."
excerpted from the article
"The Country that Wouldn't Grow Up"
by Tony Judt
Ha'aretz, www.haaretz.com, 5/5/06
InfraBlue wrote:oralloy wrote:InfraBlue wrote:"Jewish" indignation doesn't justify the Zionists' repression of the Palestinian peoples.
No such repression.
Says you.
Says everyone who isn't an anti-Semitic scumbag.
The repression and blatant hypocrisy are what stand out about this conflict as well as the violence that's been perpetrated in the name thereof. It's been obvious to me since I began to pay attention to world events at a fairly early age.
US diplomats like to say that when it comes to the Palestinian-Israeli peace process the US plays the role of 'an honest broker. "But the US's massive foreign aid payments to Israel mean that, in fact, the US is taking sides. Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid in the world, receiving more than $6 billion annually-or about $8 million every-day. Until the US stops lending its weight to Israel through biased and unfair support, a truly just peace will remain elusive.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/Ten_Reasons_Oppose_Aid.html
oralloy wrote:Says everyone who isn't an anti-Semitic scumbag.
That is so patently false, Oralloy.
It's such a childish argument.
Israel has committed some major crimes.
It is daily involved in terrorist activities
to frighten and repress the Palestinian people.
"...The charge that criticism of Israel is implicitly anti-Semitic -- is regarded in Israel and the United States as Israel's trump card.
If it has been played more insistently and aggressively in recent years, that is because it is now the only card left.
The habit of tarring any foreign criticism with the brush of anti-Semitism is deeply ingrained in Israeli political instincts: Ariel Sharon used it with characteristic excess but he was only the latest in a long line of Israeli leaders to exploit the claim.
But Jews outside of Israel pay a high price for this tactic. Not only does it inhibit their own criticisms of Israel for fear of appearing to associate with bad company,
but it encourages others to look upon Jews everywhere as de facto collaborators in Israel's misbehavior.
When Israel breaks international law in the occupied territories, when Israel publicly humiliates the subject populations whose land it has seized -- but then responds to its critics with loud cries of "anti-Semitism"
it is in effect saying that these acts are not Israeli acts, they are Jewish acts: The occupation is not an Israeli occupation, it is a Jewish occupation, and if you don't like these things it is because you don't like Jews.
In many parts of the world this is in danger of becoming a self-fulfilling assertion: Israel's reckless behavior and insistent identification of all criticism with anti-Semitism is now the leading source of anti-Jewish sentiment in Western Europe and much of Asia..."
oralloy wrote:InfraBlue wrote:oralloy wrote:InfraBlue wrote:"Jewish" indignation doesn't justify the Zionists' repression of the Palestinian peoples.
No such repression.
Says you.
Says everyone who isn't an anti-Semitic scumbag.
Nuh-uh
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/Israel_LAmer_TrailTerror.html
Israel's Latin American trail of terror
by Jeremy Bigwood
http://english.aljazeera.net/, June 5, 2003
"I learned an infinite amount of things in Israel, and to that country I owe part of my essence, my human and military achievements" said Colombian paramilitary leader and indicted drug trafficker Carlos Castao in his ghostwritten autobiography, Mi Confesin.
Castao, who leads the Colombian paramilitaries, known by their Spanish acronym AUC, the largest right-wing paramilitary force to ever exist in the western hemisphere reveals that he was trained in the arts of war in Israel as a young man of 18 in the 1980s.
He glowingly adds: "I copied the concept of paramilitary forces from the Israelis," in his chapter-long account of his Israel experiences.
Castao's right-wing Phalange-like AUC force is now by far the worst human rights violator in all of the Americas, and ties between that organisation and Israel are continually surfacing in the press.
Outside the law
The AUC paramilitaries are a fighting force that originally grew out of killers hired to protect drug-running operations and large landowners. They were organised into a cohesive force by Castao in 1997. It exists outside the law but often coordinates its actions with the Colombian military, in a way similar to the relationship of the Lebanese Phalange to the Israeli army throughout the 1980s and 1990s.
According to a 1989 Colombian Secret Police intelligence report, apart from training Carlos Castao in 1983, Israeli trainers arrived in Colombia in 1987 to train him and other paramilitaries who would later make up the AUC.
Fifty of the paramilitaries' "best" students were then sent on scholarships to Israel for further training according to a Colombian police intelligence report, and the AUC became the most prominent paramilitary force in the hemisphere, with some 10,000-12,000 men in arms.
The Colombian AUC paramilitaries are always in need of arms, and it should come as no surprise that some of their major suppliers are Israeli. Israeli arms dealers have long had a presence in next-door Panama and especially in Guatemala.
In May of last year, GIRSA, an Israeli company associated with the Israeli Defence Forces and based in Guatemala was able to buy 3000 Kalashnikov assault rifles and 2.5 million rounds of ammunition that were then handed over to AUC paramilitaries in Colombia.
Links with the continent
Israel's military relations with right-wing groups and regimes spans Latin America from Mexico to the southernmost tip of Chile, starting just a few years after the Israeli state came into existence.
Since then, the list of countries Israel has supplied, trained and advised includes Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru and Venezuela.
But it isn't only the sales of planes, guns and weapons system deals that characterises the Israeli presence in Latin America.
Where Israel has excelled is in advising, training and running intelligence and counter-insurgency operations in the Latin American "dirty war" civil conflicts of Argentina, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, and now Colombia.
In the case of the Salvadoran conflict - a civil war between the right-wing landowning class supported by a particularly violent military pitted against left-wing popular organisations - the Israelis were present from the beginning. Besides arms sales, they helped train ANSESAL, the secret police who were later to form the framework of the infamous death squads that would kill tens of thousands of mostly civilian activists.
From 1975 to 1979, 83% of El Salvador's military imports came from Israel, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. By 1981, many of those in the civilian popular political movements who had survived the death squads headed for the hills to become guerrillas.
By 1981 there was an open civil war in El Salvador which took over a decade to resolve through negotiations.
Even though the US was openly backing the Salvadoran Army by 1981, as late as November 1983 it was asking for more Israeli "practical assistance" there, according to a declassified secret document obtained recently by Aljazeera.
Among the assistance asked for were helicopters, trucks, rifles, ammunition, and combat infantry advisors to work at both the "company and battalion level of the Salvadoran Army".
One notable Salvadoran officer trained by the Israelis was Major Roberto D'Aubuisson, who always held a high opinion of the Israelis. It was Major D'Aubuisson who ordered the assassination of El Salvador's archbishop amongst thousands of other murders.
Later he would organise the right-wing National Republican Alliance Party (ARENA) and send his son to study abroad in the relative safety of Israel.
Dirty war
Amazingly, while the Israelis were training the El Salvadoran death squads they were also supporting the anti-semitic Argentine military government of the late 1970s and early 1980s - at a time when that government was involved_in another "dirty war" of death squads and disappearances.
In 1978, Nicaragua's dictator Somoza was making his last stand against a general uprising of the Sandinista-led population who were sick of his family's dynasty which had ruled and monopolised the county for half a century. The Israelis and the US had been supplying Somoza with weapons for years. But when President Jimmy Carter came into office in 1976 he ordered a cessation of all US military assistance to Nicaragua.
Filling the void, the Israelis immediately increased their weapons supplies to Somoza until he fled the country when the Sandinistas took power.
Israeli operatives then helped train right-wing Nicaraguan Contras in Honduran and Costa Rican camps to fight the Sandinista government, according to Colombian police intelligence reports Aljazeera_has obtained.
At least some of the same Israeli operatives had also previously trained the nucleus of the paramilitary organisations that would become the AUC in Colombia.
But by far the bloodiest case of Israeli involvement in Latin America was its involvement in Guatemala from the 1970s to the 1990s. As in El Salvador, a civil war pitted a populist but, in this case, mainly Indian left against a mainly European oligarchy protected by a brutal Mestizo Army.
As Guatemalan President Carlos Arana said in 1971, "If it is necessary to turn the country into a cemetery in order to pacify it, I will not hesitate to do so."
Until the US stops lending its weight to Israel through biased and unfair support, a truly just peace will remain elusive.
After you're done, try something fact based.
Israel Shahak
The Nazis made me afraid to be a Jew, and the Israelis make me ashamed to be a Jew.
Hardly unfair for the US to provide aid to fellow good guys.
Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu have both said Israel is an apartheid state. Discrimination occurs all the time.
