31
   

THE WAR IN GAZA

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 02:21 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
At least, Israel seems to be willing to publicly discuss all this - according to the Jerusalem correspondent of the Jewish Chronicle, the public is quite shocked by these reports.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 02:28 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
The matters you are citing, if true, are the exceptions that prove the rule. In every war in the history of man, mistakes are made and there is some misbehavior relative to innocents killed. However, no country in history has been more humane towards its enemies than Israel has been. Moreover, Israel has been amazingly restrained relative to retaliating against Hamas's years of shelling and rocketing Israel without cause. I don't know how you people look at yourself in the mirror.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 02:34 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

The matters you are citing, if true, are the exceptions that prove the rule.


Can't you follow the written word? I mean, it's not in Hebrew or Yiddish but in English - a transcript, confirmed to be true and original.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 02:48 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
It is, however, neither surprising nor unusual that there are pacifists among the Israelis. They are people too and certainly their society contains all the opposing ideologies that you find in all or most other developed countries. And certainly their press is no more unsusceptible to bias or less likely to look for examples to support its point of view than is the press in many other parts of the world.

The fact,however, that one of the most militarily hawkish Israeli leaders ever was not only chosen, but returned to a position of great authority suggests that that most Israelis are not in a particular pacifist mood these days. Having rockets lobbed at their homes and kids on a regular basis tends to affect the peoples' mood somewhat I guess.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 03:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
These statements weren't done by pacifists but by graduates of a military program:
Quote:
Since 1998 the program has prepared participants for what is considered meaningful military service. Many assume command positions in combat and other elite units of the Israel Defense Forces.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 03:24 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

These statements weren't done by pacifists but by graduates of a military program:
Quote:
Since 1998 the program has prepared participants for what is considered meaningful military service. Many assume command positions in combat and other elite units of the Israel Defense Forces.



I wasn't referring to the published 'excerpts' which may or may not reflect the actual intent of the instructions. I was referring to those you reported were 'shocked' by them.

From listening to my friends and relatives who have survived combat situations in a lot of wars now, I think it is not unusual for commanders in a highly volatile war zone to order shoot first, ask questions later when any alternative is likely to significantly increase casualties among your own troops. It is also not unusual for other officers' to attempt to modify more extreme or imprudent orders when it seems appropriate to do so. From the highly selective short excerpts you posted, I am guessing that is exactly what happened.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 03:28 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
From the highly selective short excerpts you posted, I am guessing that is exactly what happened.


Blame Haaretz for not publishing more.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 03:30 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I'm not blaming anybody for anything. I was expressing an opinion about the information that was made available to me.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 03:36 pm
@Foxfyre,
If you had read the Haaretz report, you'd noticed that it contains "extensive excerpts from the transcript of the meeting, as it appears in the program's bulletin, Briza, which was published on Wednesday."

But short notices are on various US media websites by now, too.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 03:43 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Whatever Walter. I don't care whether the excepts are small or the length of War and Peace. Unless I see an order from an Israeli officer ordering the intentional murder of Palestinian civilians, I will choose to believe that we are dealing with ordinary military speak and it should be evaluated within that frame of reference.
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 05:14 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Correct, transcripts have never been falsified, duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 05:27 pm
@Foxfyre,
the BBC has a fairly thorough report about the gaza situation :

see link for full report :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm

from the report :

Quote:
The testimonies were published by the military academy at Oranim College. Graduates of the academy, who had served in Gaza, were speaking to new recruits at a seminar.

"[The testimonies] conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians," academy director Dany Zamir told public radio.



Quote:
The soldiers' testimonies also reportedly told of an unusually high intervention by military and non-military rabbis, who circulated pamphlets describing the war in religious terminology.

"All the articles had one clear message," one soldier said. "We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land."

"Many soldiers' feelings were that this was a war of religion," he added.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 05:39 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

What nonsense! You know damn well that Israel went to great lengths to avoid unnecessary civilian deaths. You must be a Jew-hater.


Bull ****. 'great lengths,' Hah. They penned the Gaza citizens in like cattle and then punished them for not leaving the 'war zone' by killing hundreds and thousands of them.

Cyclotpichorn
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 05:57 pm
@hamburger,
I'm not suggesting that there isn't provocative literature being printed, passed around, dropped from airplanes or whatever, Hamburger. War is ugly, cruel, unkind, viscious, savage, and hurts the innocent along with the combatants and there is absolutely nothing to commend it. And those who fight wars do things that would be unconscionable in a time of peace. The presumption that war can be clean and perfectly executed and without innocent casualties is one of the most naive presumptions ever.

And peace is not necessarily the absence of war.

There is no peace for Israel right now, and until I am forced to live in a situation where somebody is firing rockets at me hoping to injure, maim, or kill me, my family, my neighbors, and/or destroy my property--a situation that takes my peace from me--I won't judge Israel. I personally think that overwhelming force to bring the matter to a conclusion and settle it once and for all is often a more humane plan than dragging it out over months, years, decades, and eventually centuries.

But while I do not presume more wisdom than those who have to deal with it and don't know what would produce ultimate peace there, I cannot see the Israelis as being more savage or of less conscience than the Palestinians, and I do see the Israelis as the ones being forced to defend themselves to obtain their own peace.

Once the Palestinians make a genuine and sincere move to achieve peace with Israel, and Israel does not accommodate that effort, then I would entertain the thought that Israel is the bad guys.

Advocate
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 06:04 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You are an idiot. Israel killed about 1,500 total, with the majority being Hamas fighters. This is an amazingly low number considering that Hamas military operations were in the midst of civilians.
Endymion
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 06:27 pm
@Advocate,
at least 926 were civilians - and that's not including the 255 civilian policemen - or the 236 combatants

UN envoy: Gaza op seems to be war crime of greatest magnitude
By News Agencies
Tags: Israel News, Human Rights

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072481.html

Haaretz (Israel) have also just reported on IDF testimonies that confirm accountability for failing to respect the lives of Palestinian civilians

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/03/19-2
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 06:34 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

You are an idiot. Israel killed about 1,500 total, with the majority being Hamas fighters. This is an amazingly low number considering that Hamas military operations were in the midst of civilians.


You just swallow up every little piece of propaganda that the Zionists throw out there, don't you? How do you know the majority were 'Hamas fighters?'

And Gaza is a tiny place. How the hell is Hamas supposed to operate away from civilians?

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 06:58 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
And Gaza is a tiny place. How the hell is Hamas supposed to operate away from civilians?

Cycloptichorn

You don't get it, cyclops. Terrorist type organizations want civilians to be killed. That is their propaganda angle. Why do you think buses and markets are blown up?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2009 08:05 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

There is no peace for Israel right now, and until I am forced to live in a situation where somebody is firing rockets at me hoping to injure, maim, or kill me, my family, my neighbors, and/or destroy my property--a situation that takes my peace from me--I won't judge Israel.

But you will judge the Palestinians, who have certainly had more than just their peace taken from them, and do not have the resources to build underground bunkers and "security walls" to protect themselves from the onslaught.

Quote:
I personally think that overwhelming force to bring the matter to a conclusion and settle it once and for all is often a more humane plan than dragging it out over months, years, decades, and eventually centuries.

Overwhelming force has been used in almost every violent conflict with the Palestinians. Yet it still drags on. What do you advocate next, genocide? I suppose that would end it.

Quote:
But while I do not presume more wisdom than those who have to deal with it and don't know what would produce ultimate peace there, I cannot see the Israelis as being more savage or of less conscience than the Palestinians, and I do see the Israelis as the ones being forced to defend themselves to obtain their own peace.

Ok then, let's presume they are equal in savagery and conscience. Who has the overwhelming power to commit the most atrocities? How is it possible for them to achieve "their own peace"? It isn't possible for one to have peace without the other. That's the crux of this whole situation -- the mistaken idea that Israel can have peace while denying it to her subjects (since that's what the Palestinians are).

Quote:
Once the Palestinians make a genuine and sincere move to achieve peace with Israel, and Israel does not accommodate that effort, then I would entertain the thought that Israel is the bad guys.

Why is Israel not required to make a genuine and sincere move to achieve peace? Why are the powerless expected to control the situation and the powerful expected to do nothing? This situation is so much more complicated than this simplistic idea that the Palestinians just refuse to offer peace -- as if they had it to offer.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2009 09:49 am
@FreeDuck,
How funny! You say that Israel took away the Pal's peace. The Pals have constantly attacked the Jews and Israel, even before the country was formed. And it continues to this day. I guess you feel that the Pals should have peace and be able to attack Israel at will.

It is moronic to argue that Israel has not sought peace with the Pals. The trouble is that the latter will not tolerate the state of Israel. The Pals have never produced a map showing the existence of Israel, and never will. They know that whoever does this, or enters into an agreement with Israel, will be murdered by the Pals or other Arabs. Do you remember what happened to Sadat and Abdullah? Arafat said he would be murdered were he to agree at Camp David.
 

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