31
   

THE WAR IN GAZA

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Fri 16 Jan, 2009 10:06 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Certainly in Hitler's ascent to political power, the Communists of the era in Germany were his chief political foe -- they were the polar opposites in the political spectrum of the day (and the Social Democrats were equally hated by both). From this perspective okie's failure to distinguish certainly does seem absurd. However, when one considers the similarities of the unrestrained authoritarian rule they practised - as contrasted to ideas of individual freedom and local governance - the distinctions themselves do appear rather trivial.

George, you posted a pretty insightful opinion, and I quote your last paragraph, which gets closer to the point. What oe and Walter have done is get lost in the intellectual analysis of political systems, but have forgotten the basic simplicity of what happened with Hitler. Simply, Nazi Party was a socialist party, and although perhaps at the opposite ends of the spectrum there at that particular time, they certainly are not in my opinion when you compare to history in a wider context. Hitler used the labor movement in part to help rise to power, not too unlike the communists, and although they bitterly opposed each other, I believe it was more a matter of personalities and power struggle between them, plus some policy differences, but not because they were at total odds on all issues, face it, Hitler railed against the greed of capitalism as well.

My perspective is not at all absurd, because if you look at Hitler's politics, they mirror the left of today in many aspects. Hitler was finding a third way between pure capitalism and freedom, and communism, and that is where we are headed right now here in the U.S. Hitler was to the left of traditional American type freedom and democracy, most definitely. Thus, I think this is all pertinent to debunk the absolutely silly attempts to compare the conservative right to fascism, as some leftists attempt to do, that is utter nonsense in my opinion, but that is the common perception among them. Comments by Montana started this whole discussion, and I frankly am insulted, as all decent Americans are, by the lefties hating George Bush. I predict if they attempt to go after Bush or anyone in the administration for war crimes or some such nonsense, the whole game will backfire on them big time, I certainly hope so. I cannot conceive that they would be that stupid, but when I watched Holder at the hearings, he refused to discount the possibility. Based upon what little I watched, the man gives me chills. This is the new left now gaining power, and I am nervous.

Fact is, when I see the idolatry going on, with the inauguration, the pictures, the symbolism, and all of the cultural hoopla, and the man has yet to do anything whatsoever, all based on nothing, a promise, it is highly worrisome. I am in no way comparing Obama to Hitler, but I am comparing the cultural trend toward hero worship to it, that is the same sort of thing that allowed Hitler to hold sway and do all the damage he did. We as a country, I do not believe, have ever looked at a politician the way society has toward Obama, and I think it is very dysfunctional. In my opinion, presidents are here to come and go, serve, do their best, none are perfect, and then move on. We can respect a president, but to worship them, no, that is abnormal for a healthy society.
Foofie
 
  1  
Fri 16 Jan, 2009 10:13 pm
@okie,
Is there a 50 year pendulum that brought us to the polar opposite of Senator McCarthy's anti-communist concerns, I wonder?
JTT
 
  1  
Fri 16 Jan, 2009 10:19 pm
@okie,
Quote:
Fact is, when I see the idolatry going on, ... We as a country, I do not believe, have ever looked at a politician the way society has toward Obama, and I think it is very dysfunctional. In my opinion, presidents are here to come and go, serve, do their best, none are perfect, and then move on. We can respect a president, but to worship them, no, that is abnormal for a healthy society.


Jesus, the disconnect. You're doing it yet again, Okie. You Repub lot grovel at the altar of dismally incompetent idiots, Bush and Reagan for two, and yet you can level this tripe. It's amazing. I'm sure that you couldn't walk and chew bubblegum at the same time.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Fri 16 Jan, 2009 10:23 pm
@Foofie,
I believe there are lots of pendulums, whether it is a big one now or just an election cycle one, we will find out.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Fri 16 Jan, 2009 10:42 pm
Quote:
No one I spoke to has any doubt that the Israelis are committing war crimes. According to the medics here, to reports from doctors inside the Gaza Strip and to Palestinian eye-witnesses, more than 95% of the dead and injured are civilians. Many more will probably be found when the siege is lifted and the rubble is cleared. The doctors speak of a disproportionate number of head injuries - specifically of shrapnel lodged in the brain.

They also speak of the extensive burns of white phosphorus. These injuries are, as they put it, 'incompatible with life'. They are also receiving large numbers of amputees. This is because the damage done to the bone by explosive bullets is so extensive that the only way the doctors in Gaza can save lives is by amputating.

One of the nurses said to me that the nurses and paramedics were horrified by what they were seeing. "We deal with cases all the time," she said. "But what we're seeing these days we've never seen before or imagined."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/17/gaza-israel-palestine

JTT
 
  2  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:04 am
@msolga,
Quote:
No one I spoke to has any doubt that the Israelis are committing war crimes. According to the medics here, to reports from doctors inside the Gaza Strip and to Palestinian eye-witnesses, more than 95% of the dead and injured are civilians. Many more will probably be found when the siege is lifted and the rubble is cleared. The doctors speak of a disproportionate number of head injuries - specifically of shrapnel lodged in the brain.

They also speak of the extensive burns of white phosphorus. These injuries are, as they put it, 'incompatible with life'. They are also receiving large numbers of amputees. This is because the damage done to the bone by explosive bullets is so extensive that the only way the doctors in Gaza can save lives is by amputating.

One of the nurses said to me that the nurses and paramedics were horrified by what they were seeing. "We deal with cases all the time," she said. "But what we're seeing these days we've never seen before or imagined."


What you sow, so shall you reap.
msolga
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:15 am
@JTT,
Quote:
What you sow, so shall you reap.


Yes.

And no matter what sort of deal the Israelis made with the (just about defunct) USA government for a ceasefire, the Gazans lived through this & they will not forget. How could they?
JTT
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:28 am
@msolga,
The USA doesn't condemn the Israeli war crimes because it's way too close to their own. Two peas in a pod these two are. And look around you, who suffers ... I'll give you two guesses and it ain't the rich and the powerful.
msolga
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:42 am
@JTT,
But what is the particular support for Israel all about, with successive US governments? (I am not a US citizen.) Given the Gazan situation, it is hard to understand why the US should be such a "staunch" supporter of Israeli actions, no matter what Israel actually does. I'm trying to understand what this means politically. I don't really expect anyone to answer this - I am just wondering out loud. Because it makes no sense to me.
msolga
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 03:42 am

Words and deeds in the Middle East
The Guardian, Saturday 17 January 2009

The leaders of the western world are wringing their hands in despair at the sight of the horrors inflicted on Gaza (Gaza crisis, 16 January). The UN general secretary, the French president and others are holding intensive discussions with some of the leaders of the Middle East in an attempt to put an end to the carnage in Gaza. Word, words, words.

Meanwhile, hundreds of Palestinian civilians get killed, thousands are bleeding to death, tens of thousands are uprooted and wandering in vain in search of some shelter to protect them. The Israeli army bombs hospitals and Unrwa relief centres, and, defying international convention, it uses white phosphorus bombs against civilians. "What else can we do?" these leaders keep asking. Well, here is what you can do: move from words to deeds. Only immediate, decisive and strict sanctions against the state of Israel and its limitless aggression will make it realise that there's a limit.

We, as Israeli citizens, raise our voices to call on EU leaders: use sanctions against Israel's brutal policies and join the active protests of Bolivia and Venezuela. We appeal to the citizens of Europe: please attend to the Palestinian Human Rights Organisation's call, supported by more than 540 Israeli citizens (www.freegaza.org/en/home/): boycott Israeli goods and Israeli institutions; follow resolutions such as those made by the cities of Athens, Birmingham and Cambridge (US). This is the only road left. Help us all, please!

The Palestinians - and many Arab states - have sustained that belligerency ever since and in every forum: military, economic and diplomatic.

Prof Yoram Carmeli Haifa University
Prof Rachel Giora Tel Aviv University
Dr Anat Matar Tel Aviv University
Jonathan Pollak
Dr Kobi Snitz Technion - Israel Institute of Technology
And 17 other Israeli citizens

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/17/gaza-israelandthepalestinians1
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 07:09 am
@msolga,
Quote:
But what is the particular support for Israel all about, with successive US governments? (I am not a US citizen.) Given the Gazan situation, it is hard to understand why the US should be such a "staunch" supporter of Israeli actions, no matter what Israel actually does. I'm trying to understand what this means politically. I don't really expect anyone to answer this - I am just wondering out loud. Because it makes no sense to me.



It is not coming from principle...that's for sure. It probably is the result of fierce lobbying from the Israelis…and from American Jews.

American Jews also influence legislators in our country by being extremely charitable in their donations to politicians.

Nothing wrong with any of this!

I would prefer that we be more even-handed in the matter…but that ain’t gonna happen.

Ticomaya
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 09:57 am
Quote:
January 16, 2009

Camera-Ready Victims
Hamas practices human sacrifice; the world shrugs.

By Mona Charen

They are estimating that as many as 1,000 Gazans (unverified) may have been killed and many more wounded by Israel’s counterattack against Hamas, whose missiles have rained down on southern Israel’s schools, homes, and businesses for several years. Many of those killed by the Israel Defense Forces were Hamas operatives. (Israel turns out to have excellent intelligence about their locations, and in several instances the IDF phoned its target before attacking, giving him an opportunity to save his family by leaving the house.) But many were not terrorists, because Hamas has perfected a kind of camera-ready human sacrifice"placing its launchers in playgrounds, hospitals, and neighborhoods crowded with mothers and children.

Every innocent life lost is a tragedy and a horror. But if you watch the news in Brussels or Boston and certainly in Islamabad or Caracas, you will get the distorted impression that the Palestinian plight is the worst on earth"an impression that is reinforced almost daily by the United Nations. We in the United States pay almost no attention to the resolutions, findings, and advocacy of the U.N., regarding it as a font of gasbaggery, stinking hypocrisy, and cant. But the rest of the world does pay attention. According to Eye on the U.N., in 2008, 68 percent of General Assembly resolutions regarding violations of human rights targeted Israel. Afghanistan was cited in 4 percent of the resolutions, along with Azerbaijan, Georgia, the United States, and a few others. Russia, Sudan, China, and Saudi Arabia, to name just a few, were not cited at all. In 2007, 32 countries were mentioned for human-rights violations, though most just barely. Israel once again topped the list with 121 actions taken against it. Sudan came in second with 61, Myanmar third with 41. The U.S. was No. 4, with 39 actions, tied with the Democratic Republic of the Congo!

Regarding the plight of Gaza, remember this: Between 1948, when Israel was created, and 1967, when Israel captured Gaza in a defensive war, the Gaza Strip was administered by Egypt. During those 19 years, the Egyptians never offered citizenship to the Palestinians living in Gaza, nor did they permit them free transit from the Strip into Egypt proper. They did nothing to encourage the establishment of an independent Palestinian state. In fact, in 1958, Egypt’s President Nasser formally annulled the “All Palestine Government”"a remnant of the Palestinian state the Arabs had rejected in 1948. Egypt, like all of the other Arab states and, importantly, the U.N., chose to keep the Palestinians bereft and stateless"a permanent and growing dagger aimed at Israel.

Even more instructive is this: When Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, Gaza’s residents had a golden opportunity to begin to build the sort of state they had claimed to desire. The Israelis even left behind the infrastructure to give the Palestinians a start: roads, houses, swimming pools, fish farms, nurseries, orchards, and factories. The Palestinians chose to kill one another (see Jonathan Schanzer’s new book, Hamas vs. Fatah) and to fire missiles across the border at Israel instead. Apologists like Columbia’s Rashid Khalidi protest that Israel continued to control sea lanes, borders, and air space around Gaza and cut off aid after the Palestinians elected Hamas. Well, Hamas didn’t seem to have any trouble importing longer- and longer-range Iranian missiles despite Israel’s blockade. And in any case, despite the advice of some hardliners in Israel, the Israeli government continued to permit humanitarian supplies to come through.

Since the start of 2007, 16,000 civilians have been killed in fighting. Not in Gaza, so you may have missed it. It was in Somalia, where an Islamist movement is fighting Ethiopian troops. This is the 18th year of civil strife in that country.

In Sri Lanka, some 70,000 people have perished in a civil war that has flared on and off since 1983. The regime in Burma has killed thousands and forced an estimated 800,000 into involuntary servitude.

In the Democratic Republic of the Congo (formerly Zaire), 45,000 people are dying every month. Nearly 5.5 million have died since 1998 in a conflict that grew out of the violence in Rwanda and spread. Half of those deaths were of children under the age of five, according to the International Rescue Committee. The violence in the Democratic Republic of the Congo has caused more human devastation than any conflict since World War II.

In Darfur, Sudan, more than 200,000 people have been killed and 2.5 million made homeless by violence.

To cite these sad data is not to suggest that suffering is tolerable in any particular case"but merely to observe that the world is strangely blinkered in choosing the tragedies to which it responds.
JTT
 
  -1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 11:53 am
@Ticomaya,
Quote:
In 2007, 32 countries were mentioned for human-rights violations, though most just barely. ... The U.S. was No. 4, with 39 actions, tied with the Democratic Republic of the Congo!


Well the USA is just going to have to try harder in the coming years. It's not like they haven't had a lot of practice and we all know, from past history that they're certainly up to the task.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:44 pm
It will be all over come the inauguration.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:48 pm
@spendius,
Well the Israeli Disgrace Force better get a move on if they are going to kill all the Gazans by Tuesday.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:48 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

It will be all over come the inauguration.


I don't think it will be over, but they may honor a temporary cease fire during O boy's coronation.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:54 pm
@H2O MAN,
They've done just enough to make the situation for Obama impossible, and war with Iran inevitable. Thats the sort of people they are.
old europe
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:31 pm
@georgeob1,
Let me focus on this last paragraph of your post here, george:

georgeob1 wrote:
Certainly in Hitler's ascent to political power, the Communists of the era in Germany were his chief political foe -- they were the polar opposites in the political spectrum of the day (and the Social Democrats were equally hated by both). From this perspective okie's failure to distinguish certainly does seem absurd. However, when one considers the similarities of the unrestrained authoritarian rule they practised - as contrasted to ideas of individual freedom and local governance - the distinctions themselves do appear rather trivial.


I can certainly agree with that. I think it is helpful to use the two dimensional model of the political spectrum as a basis for this discussion:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/36/European-political-spectrum.png/766px-European-political-spectrum.png

I think this is helpful, as it helps to place for example Stalin and Hitler on the same side of the libertarian-authoritarian axis, but, at the same time, shows the difference between the Soviet and the Nazi ideology on the left-right axis.


I have a problem with okie's model, as he seems to see the political spectrum as merely one-dimensional, where not just progressive, but also any kind of authoritarian ideology only resides on the left side, whereas no such danger could possible exist on the conservative-libertarian side. I think this is a very treacherous approach to what is not only conservative ideology, but, on the extreme right wing fringe, ultra-nationalism.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:39 pm
For those that can't get enough charts and graphs...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Political_chart.svg/640px-Political_chart.svg.png

http://nolanchart.com/article/chart.php?chart=nolan_chart.png&xLeft=132&xTop=78
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2009 03:21 pm
WOW! I never dreamed it was that simple.
0 Replies
 
 

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