64
   

Let's get rid of the Electoral College

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 10:24 am
@Fountofwisdom,
Quote:
I accept your criticism: However read the posts I am replying too: no logical content. I have found this with all the Americans on here. Straight to abuse. Refuse to address any point made.


I have found that to be very true in my four years on A2K. I never really liked to mention it so bluntly because I'm very polite and tolerant. To a fault I have been told. I would never be one to go for Mr Madoff or Mr Spitzer with any sort of vituperative language.

Fountie mentioned a "deeper malaise". That is what I have felt too. But A2K is not America. It's urban lower-middle chattering class America. But it has always struck me that if ordinary affairs are conducted in the US in the manner debates are on here there was serious trouble coming. Both Winston Churchill and Sir Anthony Eden mention this characteristic being powerful even in the highest offices. And serious trouble has come.

The difficulty is that I can see that such characteristics as Fountie mentions would be essential to pioneers and nation builders. The reasoned intellectual critical analysis, which anti-IDers love to attach to their names, can get a bit dithery and little use to creators of a new world. It would therefore become a tradition that absence of logical content, refusing to answer points and shouting abuse was the way forward; and traditions do not wither all that fast.

So I have always forgiven these things on the grounds that they can't help it.

But the nation is built now. More or less. Civilisation has come as it had to Europe when they left it. So maybe Americans shoul think to put these traditions behind them. No logical content, refusing to answer points and shouting abuse might be seen as old fashioned. Indulged in nostalgically. Ghosts of Uncle Sam. For grumpy old grandads.

And the Electoral College played a key part in that great feat. One doesn't kick a roof prop away unless its replacement is in place. Unless you enjoy the sound of falling masonry I mean.

So the first step in constructing the new prop is to appoint Fountie to oversee the project unless someone can be found with an IQ over 160 who is willing to take it on. And it would be foolish to appoint someone with a lower IQ than Fountie when she is eager, willing and available.

Next she must have a suite of offices. She can't be expected to organise a task like this from a park bench. And properly decorated, equipt and furnished ones with the right people beneath her. That would only take a few years. After which it gets very complicated.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 10:45 am
@Fountofwisdom,
Fount

I think I've pretty much replied to this in my post over in the other thread where this same kind of commentary is on-going. I’d just as soon continue it over there.

Spendius

That gratuitous insult material you just posted is more likely to (indeed, probably is intended to) generate the exact kind of reaction you claim to be inappropriate. Insofar as that is the case, it is just as inappropriate.

Why don’t you just knock that stuff off…rather than continually adding fuel to a fire you are complaining about?


spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 11:05 am
@Fountofwisdom,
That is exactly the sort of invalid comparison that I raised in my last post with my attempted witticisms over BOPs and Cocks.

A queue in a pub is not a queue in the sleet to vote. Anyway- pubs are so empty now that the barmaids ask do we want another before she rings the bell.

I think they deserve to queue. It's an excuse to get a little peace and quiet away from their usual fevered activities. A lot of men in England would be glad to say to the boss or the wife that they are off to vote and not come back for 8 hours and no denigrating comments ensuing. And there is a political advantage in that only those serious about their politics and thus likely to know the right choice will stick it out and the feckless dilettantes will be discouraged. One wouldn't want feckless dilettantes having too much of a say as is common here. A woman I know once voted without knowing who or what she had voted for. She just wanted to vote. Nothing more. It was seen as "cool" at that time. She was only dimly aware that there was a government.

And November is not a nice month for voting. So that thins out the feckless dilettantes even more. Did you see the snow and ice in Iowa? No respectable feckless dilettante would have left her warm sofa to go and vote in that.

It used to be said that our Conservatives preferred elections in inclement weather because only Conservatives had cars.

You see Fountie- it's like this. Promise bidding takes place in so sophisticated a manner that the candidates run neck and neck. A politician is a fool who promises more than he needs in order to win. Hence factors like queueing in bad weather in stony silence for a few hours make all the difference on the margin. Socialist politicians, who represent the feckless dilettantes, like a nice warm day to get out their vote in larger numbers.

So maybe you should campaign for a summer election date first and maybe the Electoral College will turn out to be an advantage for your side. Were it to do so I doubt you would then seek to replace it.

Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 02:22 pm
@spendius,
An intelligent an well argued piece: I like the idea of summer elections: and held on a Sunday. This would get more people to vote as nothing happens on a Sunday, Plus summer days are longer (in terms of daylight). This may get more hoi polloi out. But democracy is for everyone, not just the nice British Middle Class. Personally I think Americas obsession with industry and stopping the wasters is what lead to prohibition.
I think I'd rather have the country run by someone who could party than dour puritans. I mean they are so dull.
Americans have been arguing that changing the electoral process would be tricky. This is from a country that banned alcohol. By constitutional amendment. Which do you think would cause more trouble in blighty? Chavs not being able to get their cider, or change of the election date.
I find it surreal that Americans are calling for tradition for the government, but feel free to destroy anything that could be called culture.
I deny that America ever had a pioneer spirit. It was built on slavery, stealing and from the natives. Even the railways were built by Chinese: seem the Irish communities forgot to built stuff once they crossed the Atlantic.
Ignorance is ignorance. You can't defend it.
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 02:24 pm
@spendius,
An intelligent an well argued piece: I like the idea of summer elections: and held on a Sunday. This would get more people to vote as nothing happens on a Sunday, Plus summer days are longer (in terms of daylight). This may get more hoi polloi out. But democracy is for everyone, not just the nice British Middle Class. Personally I think Americas obsession with industry and stopping the wasters is what lead to prohibition.
I think I'd rather have the country run by someone who could party than dour puritans. I mean they are so dull.
Americans have been arguing that changing the electoral process would be tricky. This is from a country that banned alcohol. By constitutional amendment. Which do you think would cause more trouble in blighty? Chavs not being able to get their cider, or change of the election date.
I find it surreal that Americans are calling for tradition for the government, but feel free to destroy anything that could be called culture.
I deny that America ever had a pioneer spirit. It was built on slavery and stealing and from the natives. Even the railways were built by Chinese: seem the Irish communities forgot to built stuff once they crossed the Atlantic.
Ignorance is ignorance. You can't defend it.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 03:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
That gratuitous insult material you just posted is more likely to (indeed, probably is intended to) generate the exact kind of reaction you claim to be inappropriate. Insofar as that is the case, it is just as inappropriate.

Why don’t you just knock that stuff off…rather than continually adding fuel to a fire you are complaining about


I don't know what that means Frank. I wasn't complaining about anything. What are you suggesting I was complaining about? There is no fire to add fuel to as far as I can see.

In fact your post displays the sort of thing Fountie was pointing us at. There is no logical content in it that is immediately obvious. You fail to answer any of the points I alluded to and there is some abuse. I know it is not shouted too loudly but I put that down to that sweet nature of your's which shrinks from disturbing the skirts of the matrons.

I don't know what it is that I claimed was inappropriate. I was partly defending Americans from Fountie's charges and the Electoral College from any ill-considered interference such as suggesting getting rid of it. I am aware that it isn't in much need of being defended but in a debate about the matter it is fair enough to do so and hardly gratuitous.

As a conservative minded person it behoves me to defend the institutions we are used to and have been comfortable with for some time. Were nobody to take up that task the progressives would have a free hand.

I am in no way persuaded that the Electoral College has been responsible for the election of any dud presidents. That a free election in an enlightened democracy would elect a dud seems to me something of a gratuitous insult to the electorate. As I like to think of myself as more American than most Americans I can hardly be expected to sit still for such things.

Given the amount and type of coverage US elections get, which leaves few stones unturned, it is a safe bet that the US gets very close to the president it wants or needs. If there are any dud presidents elected I would think it is for other reasons than the EC. There may be, for example, few potential candidates who are prepared to be stripped bare in public and have their characters and history dissected in detail by what is something of the order of a pack of hungry dogs.

To the extent I was looking for any reaction it was that of a serious reflection on the matters I mentioned rather than the abusive, illogical and evasive claptrap you have seen fit to place upon the pages of this thread.

But hey Frank- we are all allowed a say aren't we? In a pluralist sociey we can expect views not to be singular.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 03:23 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Quote:
Which do you think would cause more trouble in blighty? Chavs not being able to get their cider, or change of the election date.


I presume I am not required to answer that question.

Quote:
I deny that America ever had a pioneer spirit.


I'm surprised you say that Fountie. You must have seen How the West Was Won, River of No Return and The Right Stuff.

And Americans have no monopoly on ignorance. We in England are a fair match at that.

I think Thursday was chosen as our traditional election date because it was the day before pay day when most of the population were skint and had nothing to do, unlike Sundays when there was always plenty to do, but were feeling a liitle optimistic at the thought of the wages coming on the next day. It also provided a weekend of relaxation from the frenetic activity of the election and gave those elected time to catch their breath before taking up the reins on the Monday following. I'm not in favour of switching to Sunday. The French have Sunday so that's a good enough reason on its own I feel. And the fewer hoi polloi voting the better.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 03:55 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Fountofwisdom wrote:

An intelligent an well argued piece: I like the idea of summer elections: and held on a Sunday. This would get more people to vote as nothing happens on a Sunday, Plus summer days are longer (in terms of daylight). This may get more hoi polloi out. But democracy is for everyone, not just the nice British Middle Class. Personally I think Americas obsession with industry and stopping the wasters is what lead to prohibition.
I think I'd rather have the country run by someone who could party than dour puritans. I mean they are so dull.
Americans have been arguing that changing the electoral process would be tricky. This is from a country that banned alcohol. By constitutional amendment. Which do you think would cause more trouble in blighty? Chavs not being able to get their cider, or change of the election date.
I find it surreal that Americans are calling for tradition for the government, but feel free to destroy anything that could be called culture.
I deny that America ever had a pioneer spirit. It was built on slavery, stealing and from the natives. Even the railways were built by Chinese: seem the Irish communities forgot to built stuff once they crossed the Atlantic.

Ignorance is ignorance. You can't defend it.



Well, your last phrase is certainly correct - as is so amply illustrated by the rest of your commentary. You appear to really understand very little about this country. Despite this you are remarkably proscriptive about what we should do. Surely there is an old English word for this annoying combination. Spendi, perhaps you can help.

I have the impression that my knowledge of world affairs is a good deal greater than yours. However, I would hesitate to recommend to Britons how they might improve their Parlimentary system of government or their electorial system. Why ? Mostly because I have not experienced either and do not (indeed cannot) fully understand the British perspective on these issues. They are your choices and your affair; not mine.
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 03:59 pm
@spendius,
I've also watched Highlander, but wouldn't claim that thee scots were immortal warriors.
Basically I find a lot of what Americans believe tiresome: America is less socially mobile than class ridden Britain. This idea that nice families went across America Little house on the prairie style is hogwash: just as much as Kipling. The British have enough sense of irony to know this.
The "founding fathers" were fraudsters and criminals who designed a weak government so they could get away with crime.
Watch the Magnificent 7. Perfect propaganda. Americans saving Mexicans. Laughable. The Americans stole the non-crap bit s from the Mexicans. California. Florida.
Part of being English is we have people telling us what rotters we are, the Scots,The Irish, the Welsh,etc. it keeps us from getting too self important: not so America
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 04:26 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Spendi, perhaps you can help.


Off the top of my head, as it is close to pub time, I would hazard the speculation that an IQ of 160 in combination with those aspects of the feminine which are ineluctable and, indeed, inelectable, is the likely explanation.

We were warned about it when the debate concerning the enfranchising of the ladies took place early in the 20th century. I hardly think there is much we can do about it now except grin and bear it.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 04:30 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Fountofwisdom wrote:

Quote:

Mensa is an organisation that only people who have an IQ of 140 plus can join.

That 's not exactly correct.

The problem with that is that there are many I.Q. tests whose
results Mensa recognizes, but thay have different scales of value.
The same number can be good on one test and bad on another.
If a man calls u and says: "I 'm in the middle of the city"
that information is intelligible only if the hearer knows which city.
If a man tells u that: " my car is at is 50 degrees "
that information is only helpful or even comprehensible
if u know whether he means 50 degrees Farenheit, Kelvin, Centigrade,
or 50 degrees of arc, or 50 degrees latitude North or South
or longitude East or West.
Hence, we cannot attribute significance to the number "160"
without knowing to which scale u have reference.

The applicable criterion for membership in Mensa
is your scoring in either of the top 2 per centiles;
i.e., u can join if u score in the 100th per centile
or in the 99th per centile of any I.Q. test that Mensa accepts.



Quote:
They gave me an entrance test. I passed it.

Which test did thay give u ?





Quote:
Thought better of joining.
One of those "Boring things to do on a Wednesday idea.

I assume that Englishmen are usually suave, urbane, charmingly civilized
and courteous
, unless provoked to wrath. Am I incorrect ?
Yet, I infer from the anger of your response,
( telling Mensa "to shove it" ) that a Mensan was impolite to u, thereby
causing u to choose to inflict injury upon his emotions; did that happen ?

Mensa consists mostly of its Special Interest Groups,
in addition to its local social meetings and its Regional Gatherings
and its nationwide Annual Gathering, whose programs are rife
with interesting speakers on many interesting subjects.
In America, any member can begin a Special Interest Group
of his own
(assuming that its not against the law, like a bank robbery SIG)
simply advertizing it in his local Mensa newsletter.
Its very libertarian: whoever chooses to attend will do so.
The SIG will thrive or die, depending upon its popularity.
Perhaps the same is true in England.



Quote:
Anyone with an IQ of 160 can consider themselves a genius.

I 'll take your word for it.




Quote:

Apparently. The argument wasn't wheter I was bright,
but how Americans feel a system that they think no one
understands constitutes a Democracy.

OK, but any statement that any person utters
is included in an on-going credibility analysis;
i.e., if I find that a man has lied to me,
then from that discovery,
I know that this is a man who lies to me
and I will take that into consideration when I hear him in the future.
That applies to everyone.



Quote:
I don't believe in God but I have been to church.
Everyone does stuff. Like joining a gym but not going to it.

I don t care whether u join English Mensa or not.
Joining clubs is a personal decision.
If u do, then u can (probably) begin whatever SIGs u like
be thay collecting gold coins, S.C.U.B.A. Diving or baking fine pastry,
fonetic spelling, hunting bear or hunting bare,
and u can also hunt new boyfriends at the meetings; its a social club.





David
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 04:31 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Quote:
Part of being English is we have people telling us what rotters we are, the Scots,The Irish, the Welsh,etc. it keeps us from getting too self important


There is a lot of truth in that although I think our style of comedy is an important contributor to our sense of our ridiculousness.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 04:37 pm
British Mensa administers around 100 Special Interest Groups,
overseen by a volunteer SIGs Officer, including:

Academics SIG
Adrenalin SIG
Americana SIG
Animal Welfare SIG
Aquarian SIG
Art & Literature SIG
AstroSIG
Aviation SIG
Baha'i SIG
Business SIG
Canal SIG
Car SIG
Cat SIG
Charities SIG
Chocolate SIG
Christian Forum SIG
Classical Music SIG
Codes & Ciphers SIG
Collectors SIG
Competitions SIG
Computer SIG
Craft SIG
Creative Writers SIG
Cricket SIG
Crime SIG
Cymru SIG
Design SIG
Deutsch SIG
Diet SIG
Doctor Who SIG
Dog SIG
Dying In Dignity SIG
Ecology SIG
Economics SIG
Education SIG
Evolution SIG
Fantasy & Horror SIG
Film SIG
Football SIG
Forum SIG
France SIG
Gardening SIG
Genealogy SIG
Health & Fitness SIG
Hearing Impaired SIG
History SIG
Horse SIG
Humour SIG
Italia SIG
Jazz SIG
Junior M SIG
M-to-M SIG
Mathematics SIG
Mystics & Scientists SIG
Pagan SIG
Party SIG
Postal Chess SIG
Professional Writers SIG
Psychology SIG
Rambling & Mountaineering SIG
Rock SIG
Science Fiction SIG
Singles SIG
Ski SIG
Space SIG
Transport SIG
Travel SIG
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 04:40 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
Part of being English is we have people telling us what rotters we are,
the Scots,The Irish, the Welsh,etc. it keeps us from getting too self important


There is a lot of truth in that although I think our style of comedy is an important contributor to our sense of our ridiculousness.

Spendious,
is a rotter a person or a thing that rots ?
Fountofwisdom
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 04:43 pm
@spendius,
Lie back and think of England.
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 04:49 pm
@georgeob1,
As usual no debate.
Banning alcohol is a huge task. The Americans did it, with a constitutional change: (18 th I think). FACT
changing the politicalsystem would be less difficult .FACT
November is a daft time to have elections. The weather is against it.
The Iowa caucus was nearly snowed out. FACT
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 05:20 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I find your idea of credibility analysis absurd. You ask me a question. I answer it. You answer none of the points I make. I told you I dont believe in IQ tests: I think they are a stupid idea. I believe the test are designed (in England) that 140 represent the top 5%. 160 the top 2%. My argument was that you were arguing I was too stupid to understand the system. Therefore if someone who is objectively classed as intelligent cant understand it, then it is too complicated to qualify as a democracy.
You resort to abuse. You do not argue logically. You are incapable of making a sensible point. From these I conclude you are stupid. At least you stand your ground.Which is to your credit.
Now what I suggest is this. You stop trying to bully me: it won't work. Stop the abuse. It doesnt impress me. Argue coherently. make succinct points. Say something interesting or entertaining.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 06:22 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Fountie- I have another objection to having elections on a Sunday. It is that the kids don't get a day off from school. I always have thought that the less exposure kids have to the teaching profession the better.

I am well aware that this is collateral benefit as the main idea is to reduce the exposure of the teaching profession to kids but hey- who's complaining? A win/win situation is always a good thing. Sunday is a hopeless choice. Mon to Fri inc. during term time is essential.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 06:27 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Spendious,
is a rotter a person or a thing that rots ?


No. The problem is that they don't rot. If they did one would only need to drum one's fingers on the table and exercise a degree of patience. Having a scented spray can handy of course.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 06:42 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Dave--
why do you spell value, emotions, regional, nation, group, chooses, true and new as you du?

Shouldn't they be valu, eemoshuns, reegional, nayshun, grup, chuses, tru and nu?

Why are you discriminating against "you". Is it an affectation?
 

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