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Holocaust's unholy hold

 
 
Zippo
 
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2008 02:14 pm
The deeper we are stuck in our Auschwitz past, the more difficult it becomes to be free of it.

The constant presence of the Shoah is like a buzz in my ear. In Israel, children are always, it seems, preparing for their rite-of-passage "Auschwitz trip" to Poland. Not a day passes without a mention of the Holocaust in the only newspaper I read, Haaretz. The Shoah is like a hole in the ozone layer: unseen yet present, abstract yet powerful. It's more present in our lives than God.

It is the founding experience not just of our national consciousness but of more than that. Army generals discuss Israeli security doctrine as "Shoah-proof." Politicians use it as a central argument for their ethical manipulations.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-burg16-2008nov16,0,489752.story?track=ntothtml
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2008 08:59 pm
@Zippo,
Interesting that this article appears so close after the election? But, if the Holocaust (or Shoa) does seem to be so prominent in the minds of many Israelis, should we blame them? That may be like blaming a soldier for his PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). Perhaps, the Shoa focus is a sort of PTSD (Post Traumatic Shoa Disorder). Again, let us not forget that Israel exists, because Europe did not want those Shoa survivors in their backyard. So I cannot put the onus on the Israelis to overcome their focus. But, naturally, this might be a minority opinion of mine, since expediency might just dictate that it is easier to blame Israelis for this focus than several of the EU countries.

Did anyone see the recent PBS special on the Monarchy (England)? Queen Elizabeth in her toast to the U.S., at the British Embassy dinner mentioned quite emphatically the friendship of our two countries, in context of remembering WWII. Not everyone wants to have a short memory apparently.
Zippo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 10:07 am
@Foofie,
You sound like a Zionist. Israel firster... You've always been pretending to be a U.S flagwaving citizen when all you really care about is Jews and Israel.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 10:16 am
@Zippo,
Check this out, "Zippo":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfIzYkuld5M

That's what happens when a REAL genius (as opposed to an idiot racist ideologue like your hero Uncle Adolf) sets out to take over the world: he SUCCEEDS at it. Almost enough to make you cry, isn't it?
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 12:13 pm
@Zippo,
Zippo wrote:

You sound like a Zionist. Israel firster... You've always been pretending to be a U.S flagwaving citizen when all you really care about is Jews and Israel.


Perhaps to you I sound that way? As a Vietnam Era veteran, I do not consider myself an "Israel firster." Actually, I am an American Firster, if that is a term to be used. I believe I just have the capacity to see history in its correct sequence, so I do not blame Israel for its adversarial relationship with its neighbors. I understand that many of the Jewish Israelis were put there for expediency. Also, from my psychology courses from years past, I do not blame Jews for their continued focus on the Holocaust. It is just a symptom of post-genocide trauma, in my opinion.

I am not confortable though with Americans/Europeans that still see Jews as some sort of threat, since today's "American society" has decided, I believe, to utilize Jewish Americans as a valuable resource, so any Gentiles, that still harbor any Judeophobia, can see there is a benefit to allowing Jews to be part of the American fabric, without the historical anti-Semitism that they endured, as other groups have had to endure prejudice in the U.S. in decades past.

By the way Zippo, I watched the PBS special on the secrets of the bible. The fact that Moses did not author the Old Testament has always been a scholarly question. What I thought interesting was that the Israelites may have just been Canaanites that developed a new identity, after they left collapsing city states to the west. In effect, Jews are Canaanites, and therefore an indigenouse people to Israel/Canaan. Do not tell this to any Arabs, or Palestinians; they might not like this archeological finding.

Also Zippo, most Americans do not see any ambiguity to Jewish Americans being pro-Israel, since many Christian Americans are also pro-Israel. If anyone believes most Jewish Americans are for Israel first, he/she is sadly mistaken, I believe, since three-quarters of American Jews voted for Obama, and we know Obama was campaigning on a more even-handed approach to the Middle East. Perhaps, most of the one-quarter of the Jewish Americans that voted for McCain (myself included) value his politics, and Sarah Palin's politics. I believe it is possible that American Jews actually can value a politician for his/her non-Israeli political position. Do you?

And just between us Zippo, due to a level of discomfort, I would not associate with Israelis, just as I would not associate with Arabs, Russians, Asians, or any other groups of foreigners that I have no childhood experience with. Being much older than yourself, I believe, I am only comfortable with the demographic I grew up with in NYC (who were mostly native New Yorkers). Sorry, for being so old-fashioned.


Zippo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 12:37 pm
@Foofie,
"Jews are Canaanites"

How is that going to be a problem with Arabs? I think they just want to remove 95% of Euro Jews who have invaded their homeland (Palestine). They'd welcome original Jews (Canaanites) with open arms.

If Americans really love Jews as you say, then why cant Bush ship 'em out of Israel and bring 'em to the U.S where they can be safe from "terrorists"?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 08:07 pm
@Zippo,
Zippo wrote:

"Jews are Canaanites"

How is that going to be a problem with Arabs? I think they just want to remove 95% of Euro Jews who have invaded their homeland (Palestine). They'd welcome original Jews (Canaanites) with open arms.

If Americans really love Jews as you say, then why cant Bush ship 'em out of Israel and bring 'em to the U.S where they can be safe from "terrorists"?


Duh! "Euro Jews" (cute term, but it means nothing) are just Semitic mutts. Their DNA in the patrilineal line tends to show a Middle Eastern lineage. The DNA for women shows a tendency to be from a European Gentile woman. That just means that early Jews wandered into pre-Christian Europe as "traders," and the younger men married local women. However, the religion was kept, and that is how Europe got its Jews. That does not mean they are less Jewish, just less Semitic. And, when did all the sand in the Middle East belong only to Pure Semites? If that was the case, the Russians should leave Brighton Beach in Brooklyn. And, according to that logic, our President-elect cannot call himself Black. We know that is not so.

To answer the second thought of yours about Israeli Jews moving en masse to the U.S., I can only wonder where you have the thought that all Israelis want to come to the U.S.? As I understand it, from the little I know, Israelis like living in a country where the world seems to be Jewish, since they have heard how exclusionary Europe was for two-thousand years. Remember, Israelis today may be fourth generation born there. It only takes three generations to claim to be a U.S. Yankee.

But, continuing your thoughts relating to who should be in Israel - Pure Semites or watered-down Semites, I think you should realize that as the clock ticks, those Euro Jews are marrying the Sephardic Jews in Israel (Sephardic meaning the Middle Eastern Jews), and guess what - the offspring are quite Middle Eastern - the miracle of "dominant genes." So, with time, as all Jewish Israelis intermarry, they will be very much Middle Eastern. And, let us not forget the Ethiopean Jews. They may have more of a birthright to Israel, since the first Middle Easterners came out of Africa.

I am very sorry for your concerns about the Middle East and Israel, since in my opinion, I get the feeling you are spending an awful lot of your energy on this concern, and life can pass one by without achieving one's preferences.

Sort of like if American Jews chose not to focus on life here in the U.S., and were involved with the nostalgia of the Jewish culture in Europe that died with WWII. You see, while Israel does exist, to the consternation of her enemies, Jews all over the world still enjoy their respective lives, in the country they are citizens of. Perhaps, that ability reflects a two-thousand year learning curve, due to the Diaspora, that few other ethnicities had as a life lesson? In my own opinion, perhaps the Cubans in Miami have learned in a very short time how not to lose their culture and language, yet focus their energies in a new land and live a successful life?

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