Let GM go Bankrupt

I did not say we wasted a dime as almost all those improvements ended up paying for themselves a few hundreds times or even a few tens of thousands of time in a few decades time frame.

The Eric canal is the very first example of this with one hell of a large payback for New York State.

However all such government back improvements could and was challenge by people of your mind set and thinking at the time.

Side note cars was fairly worthless until the government at all level pour billions into building roadways and highways for them.

Hawkeye went to bet that the cost to the government to build the roads for those millions of model Ts to drive on came out to more then the retail cost of those model Ts?

You are acting as if the government had never before had placed funds to get a new transportation means off the ground or if they did so it was wrong to do so.

http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=2348

You REALLY dont want to be on the side arguing that the government expenditure on water projects justifies our using public sector money to promote electric car technology. The best case scenario for the economics of the technology as well as the environmental impact of it are both iffy. As mentioned the government wasted big time promoting ethanol, even before the tax supported and mandatory addition of ethanol to gas industry was finished with its build out we figured out that the entire enterprise was a huge mistake. We got a few of good years of life out of the canals, but they were never worth the great expense to put them in. Also, think back three years and remember what you were hearing said about the corn fed ethanol technology by the government, eco groups, and investors...it sounded eerily familiar to what these same groups are saying about electric cars today....AND THE CORN ETHONAL LOBBY WAS FULL OF IT...they were either idiots or liars.. And Electric cars have already failed as a technology once!

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My god the Erie canal made both New York city and New York state..........as well as Ohio and pay for itself a few thousands times over.

We should go back to horses it would seem.


http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Lock+11,+Erie+Canal

Work on the canal was carried on by gangs made up, in many cases, of European immigrants. The canal's course was entirely enclosed; streams and lakes were not incorporated into the waterway. The middle section (Utica to Salina) was completed in 1820; the eastern section through the Mohawk River valley was finished in 1823. Elaborate celebrations opened the entire canal in 1825; Clinton and other notables sailed from Buffalo to New York City, where Clinton emptied a barrel of Lake Erie water into the Atlantic Ocean. The canal was enlarged beginning in 1835; its most important branches, the Champlain (opened 1819), the Oswego (1828), and the Cayuga-Seneca (1829), were also enlarged. The Erie Canal contributed to New York City's financial development, opened eastern markets to Midwest farm products and encouraged immigration to that region, and helped to create numerous large cities. Its initial success started a wave of canal building in the United States.

Railroad competition, beginning in the 1850s, eventually destroyed the canal's long-haul advantages; however, for many years the Erie Canal was a profitable route. Tolls were abolished in 1882, however, because of its state of disrepair and to lure more traffic. Although some improvements were made (1884–94), inadequate navigability, the competition of Canadian routes, and the disclosure of fraudulent administration (the "Canal Ring") brought about plans for complete renovation and subsequent conversion (1905–18) into a large, modern barge canal. Unlike the original canal, the revamped waterway incorporated canalized rivers and lakes in the waterway; parallel sections of the old Erie Canal were abandoned. Much tonnage was still shipped via the canal in the 1950s, but the opening of the New York State Thruway and the St. Lawrence Seaway Saint Lawrence Seaway, international waterway, 2,342 mi (3,769 km) long, consisting of a system of canals, dams, and locks in the St. Lawrence River and connecting channels between the Great Lakes; opened 1959.
..... Click the link for more information. sealed the canal's commercial demise. Traffic now consists almost entirely of pleasure boats; a five-year overhaul in the late 1990s was undertaken to make the canal a major "recreationway."

To say nothing of the city of Detroit.

http://www.britannica.com/facts/11/767122/Erie-Canal-as-discussed-in-Detroit

Facts about Erie Canal: Detroit,
as discussed in Britannica Compton's Encyclopedia Detroit: History:
Detroit finally came of age in 1825, when the Erie Canal was completed. Suddenly the time it took to travel from the East coast to Detroit was reduced from a month to a mere five and a half days. New Englanders brought their families to Michigan, cleared the virgin woods, and began farming. Fortunes were made and lost in land speculation. Merchants grew rich and lumber barons began carving up...

You are suffering from logic fail....the electric car is not going to make any city, state region or country....and it will only make a company if that company does it right and no one else does. I have heard it said that the entire rational for saving GM boiled down to the Volt, that GM had the technology right and was way ahead of the game so if only the government kept GM in business long enough to get the Volt into production that all would be fine. This is the same car that is $8K more expensive than the competition so in order to move units GM is leasing it out at a loss...and oh by the way, they ended up to market only a few months ahead of the competition. The Volt is going to save GM?? HOW?? Please explain how you save the company making a money losing product.

GM is now making a profit of a few billions a quarter you do know that right Hawkeye it been save.

The resources that the society is placing into electric cars is tiny compare to building a whole road system for the model T for example.

By Fred Meier, USA TODAY
55 Comments

6 Recommend

General Motors is pinning its hopes on vehicles such as the new 2011 Chevrolet Cruze.
CAPTIONGeneral Motors via WieckUpdated 1:09 with conference call. Link to the GM posting of its quarterly release, charts and official SEC 10-Q filing at end of post.


General Motors posted $2 billion in Q3 earnings on revenue of $34.1 billion in its last financial report before it hopes investors will snap up its shares in the planned Nov. 18 return to the stock market.



GM Logo.
CAPTIONGeneral Motors via WieckThe overall earnings -- before interest expenses and taxes -- came mostly came from a $2.1 billion profit in North America, up from $1.6 billion in the second quarter and $1.2 billion in the first quarter, according to a report from colleague Chrissie Thompson of the Detroit Free Press.

CEO Dan Akerson reiterated the company's expectation to post its first full-year profit since 2004, but warned that fourth-quarter earnings will be significantly lower than each of the first three quarters this year.

"We know we have much more work to do," Akerson said on the earnings conference call. "We still need to fix Europe. We continue to be vigilant in reducing costs in the enterprise, and we have just started doing a better job marketing our brands to consumers."

GM's international region, which includes the hot Asian market, posted a $646 million profit, down slightly from last quarter, but GM's troubles in Europe got worse: It lost $559 million, compared with $160 million in the second quarter.




With its third profitable quarter in a row, GM is trying to reassure potential investors that the problems that led to four years of losses -- a staggering $82 billion total -- before its 2009 bankruptcy have been fixed -- with the help of a $50 billion federal bailout and government-supervised bankruptcy that has left taxpayers owning nearly 61% of the company.

Taxpayers may not get it all back in the IPO and subsequent stock sales, but "eighteen months ago, nobody expected any taxpayer money to get paid back," said Rebecca Lindland, an analyst at IHS Automotive.

GM's worldwide market share in the quarter slipped from 11.8% a year earlier to 11.5%. That's mostly due to a one-point market share loss in North America, where GM has sold or wound down four of its eight brands.

More details:

GM's operations generated $2.6 billion in cash. After capital expenditures of $1.2 billion, free cash flow was $1.4 billion.


Chief Financial Officer Chris Liddell again warned that GM's fourth-quarter earnings before interest and taxes would take a hit by a different production mix, the cost of launching new vehicles such as the Chevrolet Cruze, like the one pictured at top, and its electric Volt, and higher engineering expenses for future products. Capital expenditures are accelerating in the fourth quarter, he said. GM expects full-year capital expenditures of about $5 billion, up from $3.1 billion through September.

Lindland, at IHS Automotive, said the extra fourth-quarter expenses seemed reasonable. "I would hope that people are taking a long-term view of the situation and that they understand and account for the cycles of expenses, especially launching a vehicle like a Volt and the Cruze. These are truly vehicles of (GM's) future."

In addition, GM will incur a $700 million non-cash charge in the fourth quarter related to its planned purchase of $2.1 billion of series A preferred stock currently held by the U.S. Treasury. That won't affect the fourth-quarter earnings before interest and taxes, Liddell said, but it will drag down net profits.

GM has said annual profits will continue. Liddell said last week in an online investor video GM will be able to make $11 billion to $13 billion before interest and taxes in a moderate sales year and $17 billion to $19 billion when sales are at their peak.

That's largely because GM's bankruptcy restructuring will enable it to break even in years when U.S. industry sales are as low as 10.5 million to 11 million, down from at least 15.5 million, Liddell said last week. U.S. light-vehicle sales totaled 10.4 million in 2009 and are tracking at about 11.5 million this -- but approached 16 million before the recession.



"GM sales this year show advancement from the company due to a stronger product lineup while improved earnings demonstrate the progress made through lower manufacturing costs and higher product margins," Jesse Toprak, vice president of Industry Trends and Insight at TrueCar.com, said in a statement. "There is still room for improvement as transaction prices remained flat and fleet sales have risen slightly."

The quarterly earnings nearly match GM's profit from the first half of the year, along with the $2.1 billion quarterly profit Ford has averaged so far this year. Ford gained $6.4 billion through September, compared with GM's $4.2 billion. GM posted profits of $865 million in the first quarter and $1.3 billion in the second.



In the initial public offering next week, the U.S. Treasury is selling about a third of its 61% equity stake in GM at a loss. The government is hoping the stock's value rises enough in the future to allow taxpayers to break even on the total investment when it sells the rest of its shares.



You can see the quarterly release, charts, and official SEC 10-Q filing on the GM investor information

Lehman Brothers announced a $886 million yearly profit Dec 7 2007. It went tits up Sep 15 2008.......

As far as GM losing money on the leases of the Volts I had yet to look it up but I would bet a large sum that they are selling those leases to third parties and getting a large amount of cash upfront.

Very useful cash flow to pay for retooling costs Etc and in effect borrowing money cheaply by way of the leases and building up a market share at the same time.

Nothing is as simple as they are willing to lease at a lost to annoy you Hawkeye.

Yes I am sure with all the oversight they are under now that they can play with the numbers.

You realty hate the idea that this had work out it would seems.

They still take wild chances and now they know that they are too big to fail they may be even more irresponsible.

You cant get your brain around the idea that GM is the same company that made a big media splash about paying back the taxpayer's $4.7 billion 5 years early, and then the next week had to admit that this $4.7 billion was all taxpayers money, not GM money, that all they did is move some of our money from one account to another. And you want to take their books seriously after that charade??

Here is the commercial in case you have forgotten

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhoejIGrvlQ

Farmerman the owners/shareholders was wipe out and the top management had been replaced so who in the hell are "they" who will be even more irresponsible in the future?????

Wagoner walked away with over $8 million plus about $100,000 year for the rest of his life in pension and bennies....not too shabby for a guy who finshed the job of running the company into the ground.

Care to try again?

I wsnt talking about LEhman, although as I reread my post it cpould appear that way. I menat to say that , of the remaining fiancial can be involved in rsiky business because they are perceived to be too big to fail

AND.......
http://jalopnik.com/5657215/fired-gm-ceo-paid-59000-a-month-for-20-hours-of-work


Whitaker was supposed to make $9 million in 2010, and I think he got to keep most of it even though he quit early...though I have not found any accounts.
OMG, these guys have a hard life now that they had to leave the company that they help destroy,that become a ward of the state.

He has what ongoing control over the new GM?

The new shareholders are going to be eager to be wiped out like the old shareholders and will allow the new GM management to do a repeat perform? Or, the new GM management is going to be eager to re-bankrupt the company in the hope of walking away with 8 millions?

I know you and Farmerman must have some logic buried somewhere but I had yet to see it.

Having your owners wipe out seem a failure to me with all the others stakeholders taking large finance hits so what do you mean that GM was too big to fail.

To be broken apart with the tools sold at scrape metal prices yes but in no other way was the company not allow to fail.