Killing people is the best solution.

@JPB,

Hey JPB... gosh... huge sense of deja vu on this conversation.

Personally - I don't agree with capital punishment (state)- in the respect of... one innocent person dying... is one too many.

I had a long...LOUD conversation with a Texan friend when I visited the US in August. At the time of my visit, a man was being executed for the heinous rape and murder of a 14 year old girl - truly horrifying act - my friend (who has very opposing views in pretty much everything that I believe in) was cheering loudly. We..."conversed" for a while - heated debate I think one could call it.... I asked him what his thoughts were about an innocent person being executed. He replied... quote "if 98% of executions were guilty people, then the 2% is a viable loss".

I asked him if one of his children happened per unfortunate chance to be one of the 2% of his viable loss - how would he feel. Of course, 2% of his own would not be acceptable. Tables turned.

My opinions are neither here nor there in the bigger scheme of things - I do know I don't believe that one innocent person should be executed by the state.

I too have different views on "if someone did something to one of mine"..... thoughts I hope I never have to consider, where the state would not make my decisions or be responsible for my acts, but maybe I would. I also believe the victims and the victims families are the ones to be considered and that the law does not do itself justice in many cases.

However, I was brought up with a strong paternal view of "an eye for an eye"....

It's hard not to be emotive on this subject. I have many thoughts on the subject but during the discussion with my US friend I was shouted down, up close and personal, to the point of making me shake from someone shouting at me. So I'm gonna get back in my box right now. Neutral

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Netherlands media reporting thousands of shit4brains people MOURNING these animals:

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/news/international/6044917/Thousands-mourn-Bali-bombers

Quote:

Thousands mourn Bali bombers
Published: Sunday 09 November 2008 12:45 UTC
Last updated: Sunday 09 November 2008 15:19 UTC
In Indonesia, thousands of sympathisers have attended the funerals of the three men executed by firing squad on Saturday for the 2002 Bali bombings. Mourners who attended the funerals of the brothers Amrozi and Mukhlas in Tenggulun in East Java paid tribute to them as martyrs. Although there were brief clashes between bystanders and police, for the most part the event passed off peacefully. The third bomber, Imam Samudra, was buried in West Java in a ceremony open only to his family.

Authorities in Indonesia are not ruling out the possibility of reprisals by Jemaah Islamiyah, the Islamist network to which the three men belonged. Radical cleric Abu Bakar Bashir, the co-founder of Jemaah Islamiyah, led prayers at the funeral of the brothers in East Java.

The bombings of a nightclub and disco in 2002 killed 202 people, many of them Australian tourists.

Again, just killing the fuckers is minimal, more than that would appear to be called for.

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@Eorl,

I think Capital Punishment is somewhat of a statement that if you Kill someone or cause other people harm-You will be held accountable. I read of the case yesterday on CNN, and I was somewhat sympathetic to the victims and family members of those who suffered this awful ordeal. By executing those who killed thousands of innocent people, you are sending a message to those who might think of doing something like this in the future-You will pay with your own life.
Killing other people is never cool. Imagine your daughter goes to a club to hang out with her friends and the next thing you know you are picking her up piece by piece. Or not finding anything left from her. No closure.
And Imagine those who caused this pain to your child-Never held accountable.
PS. When it comes to Capital Punishment I have one and only problem-I am aware that sometimes investigations do go wrong and an innocent person ends up on a death toll. If there was a way of eliminating those errors I would not have problems with death penalty. I am sorry if I am sounding like an awfully heartless person. But in order to build a civil society there should be reward system for those who do good to others and punishment for those who kill and destroy lives around them.

1 Reply

@Eorl,

Our local Murdoch had FIVE PAGES of stuff about the executions....including ghoulish info about how "bravely" or not they allegedly faced death.

Revengeful dreck.

Great to see one of the more prominent Adelaide families who lost kids speaking out against the execution and the ghoulish media.

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@Eorl,

I completely agree with you, Earl. Personally, I've found "defending" the Bali bombers "right" to not die (in line with my beliefs on capital punishment) an extremely difficult case to argue publicly in Oz, in the given cicumstances. I started another thread on this subject here, to discuss this issue further & have gotten nowhere. Sigh.

1 Reply

@SanFranciscan,

SanFranciscan wrote:

Killing other people is never cool.

I agree completely, but you might wanna think about that for a bit.

Quote:

But in order to build a civil society..

You think you have the right to take a persons life for that reason?

1 Reply

@Eorl,

I'm with Eorl and all my compatriots on this one - why isn't our voice heard? Oh yeah, Murdoch papers.

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@Eorl,

Again, message is-Do not kill and you shall not be killed yourself.

1 Reply

@SanFranciscan,

SanFranciscan wrote:

Again, message is-Do not kill and you shall not be killed yourself.

That's your message? Where do you think you get the right? Where does anyone get the right?

See, your law doesn't work. If someone kills, someone must then kill them. This, no matter how much you pretend otherwise, is the killing of a human being by another human being. You seem determined to focus on the punishment/consequence/deterent aspect, determined to ignore the actual killing part.

Also, you make that statement as though you didn't just make it up yourself, like you think it's some kind of natural law. It isn't. Do you think raping a rapist would be right?

Who would you like to kill the killer? Happy to do it yourself? Happy to pay someone who enjoys it? Happy to pay someone who doesn't enjoy it?

(SanFranciscan, I apologize if I seem to be singling you out or attacking you personally. I'm not, I'm simply trying to make my point as clearly as I can.)

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Brandon9000 wrote:

Why do you believe that capital punishment is wrong? You haven't said.

There are a lot of arguments against CP, some have been outlined here already by others, but I guess the strongest for me is a "sanctity of life" argument, for want of a better phrase. It's deeply sad and tragic to me when a human being prematurely cuts short the life of another. That the consequence of doing so should require yet another human being to prematurely cut short the life of another human being...is this not absurd?

Two wrongs don't make a right. How is this not obvious? I just don't get it.

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@msolga,

Yeah I know the feeling. This is something;

http://news.theage.com.au/national/australia-wants-end-to-death-penalty-20081109-5kq6.html

1 Reply

@Eorl,

Eorl wrote:

SanFranciscan wrote:

Again, message is-Do not kill and you shall not be killed yourself.

That's your message? Where do you think you get the right? Where does anyone get the right?

It is a natural right that predates laws and probably even language. Every person is born with an absolute right to protect themselves from murderers using whatever means necessary. By extension, society has this same right.

Eorl wrote:

See, your law doesn't work. If someone kills, someone must then kill them. This, no matter how much you pretend otherwise, is the killing of a human being by another human being. You seem determined to focus on the punishment/consequence/deterrent aspect, determined to ignore the actual killing part.

A person has an absolute right to use whatever force necessary to prevent rape or murder… do you disagree in real time? By extension, society has this same right... bordering on responsibility if one believes he is truly his brother's keeper. The "punishment/consequence/deterrent" aspects are added benefits to the only guaranteed prevention of recidivism.

Eorl wrote:

Also, you make that statement as though you didn't just make it up yourself, like you think it's some kind of natural law. It isn't. Do you think raping a rapist would be right?

No; a revenge rape would do nothing to prevent recidivism... but executing him most certainly would.

Eorl wrote:

Who would you like to kill the killer? Happy to do it yourself? Happy to pay someone who enjoys it? Happy to pay someone who doesn't enjoy it?

I'd like to see a death-penalty enhancement jury consist of military officers with distinguished service records and the sentence carried out by those military men and women who have already volunteered to kill on behalf of the collective.

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@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Some will guess this is coincidence. I tend to doubt it.

Can you show a causal link? Without that, your graph is meaningless.

Fewer pirates, higher temperatures:

http://www.seanbonner.com/blog/archives/piratesarecool.jpg

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@OCCOM BILL,

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murdrate-exec.gif

Deterrence: States Without the Death Penalty Have Had Consistently Lower Murder Rates

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murderratesDP&NDP.jpg

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterencegap.jpg

And here's a discussion of recent deterrance studies.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

Occom Bill wrote:

Quote:

A person has an absolute right to use whatever force necessary to prevent rape or murder… do you disagree in real time? By extension, society has this same right... bordering on responsibility if one believes he is truly his brother's keeper. The "punishment/consequence/deterrent" aspects are added benefits to the only guaranteed prevention of recidivism.

I absolutely agree with you that a person has that absolute right. Society also has that right, as you say. But executions take place after the fact, after the crime has been committed. So, how does that prevent rape or murder? Oh, I see. You say it prevents recidivism. True enough. But what evidence did you have, when convicting the alleged felon, that the perp intended to strike again? Many murders are simply spur-of-the-moment crimes of passion. Just because a fellow kills his wife and her lover is not evidence that he's also planning to do away with his neighbor's wife and her lover.

Capital punishment is not and never has been a deterrent. In the old days executions were conducted publicly as a warning to anyone else who might take a notion into their heads to go out and do likewise. Didn't work then, doesn't work now.

You'd save yourself a lot of typing time, Bill, if you just came out and admitted outright that your concern isn't justice. It's vengeance, plain and simple. I can understand that. If someone harms someone near and dear to me, I, too, want revenge. But I don't pretend that it's just and right. It isn't. It just makes me feel better, is all.

1 Reply

@Merry Andrew,

Merry Andrew wrote:

Occom Bill wrote:

Quote:
A person has an absolute right to use whatever force necessary to prevent rape or murder… do you disagree in real time? By extension, society has this same right... bordering on responsibility if one believes he is truly his brother's keeper. The "punishment/consequence/deterrent" aspects are added benefits to the only guaranteed prevention of recidivism.

I absolutely agree with you that a person has that absolute right. Society also has that right, as you say. But executions take place after the fact, after the crime has been committed. So, how does that prevent rape or murder? Oh, I see. You say it prevents recidivism. True enough. But what evidence did you have, when convicting the alleged felon, that the perp intended to strike again? Many murders are simply spur-of-the-moment crimes of passion. Just because a fellow kills his wife and her lover is not evidence that he's also planning to do away with his neighbor's wife and her lover.

A clearly proven, demonstrated propensity for heinous violence in itself presents an unacceptable risk, IMO. I did not say every murder fits this criteria; I posit some do.

Merry Andrew wrote:

Capital punishment is not and never has been a deterrent. In the old days executions were conducted publicly as a warning to anyone else who might take a notion into their heads to go out and do likewise. Didn't work then, doesn't work now.

Can you prove this? Of course not. I am quite comfortable assuming that where horse theft was a hanging offense; this fact was considered by more than a few potential horse thieves who opted not to steal a horse. Now obviously I can't prove this effect; but my ability to reason tells me it is more likely than not. I don't see how you can assume the opposite, with no clearer evidence, in the face of common sense. Most people have an instinct for self preservation… and I find it irrational to pretend this isn’t so.

Merry Andrew wrote:

You'd save yourself a lot of typing time, Bill, if you just came out and admitted outright that your concern isn't justice. It's vengeance, plain and simple. I can understand that. If someone harms someone near and dear to me, I, too, want revenge. But I don't pretend that it's just and right. It isn't. It just makes me feel better, is all.

Were this the case; I would do so. But it isn't. Did you know that failure to substantially address recidivism in domestic violence situations has resulted in domestic violence being the leading cause of death among pregnant women? In the majority of these cases; the perpetrator already had a history of domestic violence. In fact; 40% of all inmates serving time for intimate violence were actually already on Probation, Parole, or in violation of a restraining order at the time of their offense. Clearly, this indicates that people who've already demonstrated a propensity for violence are far more likely to re-offend than your average citizen is to offend in the first place. Reducing recidivism is a very realistic motive for more effective societal response to violent criminals... so you shouldn't doubt it as a motivating factor.

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Some will guess this is coincidence. I tend to doubt it.

Can you show a causal link? Without that, your graph is meaningless.

Only in the eyes of a person trying to prove a predisposition. Notice I didn't claim a causal link, as it is beyond obvious that none can be proven. The numbers on the graph are nonetheless factual; and if you can't see a greater likelihood of relevance between those numbers and your idiotic Pirates/Temperature example; you are an idiot. One can observe a spike in street violence during alcohol prohibition and the subsequent reduction in same accompanying it's repeal; but one cannot prove a causal link there either. However, only a fool would insist that lack of proof constitutes proof of absence or meaninglessness. Evidence need not be undeniable to have meaning and be well worthy of consideration.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

The pirate graph is to show the idiocy of blindly believing graphs, and to illustrate that there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics."

My further point is that while your data may be true for national numbers, the state-by-state numbers do not support your hypothesis.

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@Eorl,

Eorl wrote:

Yeah I know the feeling. This is something;

http://news.theage.com.au/national/australia-wants-end-to-death-penalty-20081109-5kq6.html

Oh?

Might have been better BEFORE the executions.

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@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Every person is born with an absolute right to protect themselves from murderers using whatever means necessary. By extension, society has this same right.

Necessary - Aye, and there's the rub.

If an individual kills to protect himself when it IS NOT neccessary, then that can be viewed as murder. By extension, society has this same responsibility.

Many countries around the world agree that dragging a criminal out of a prison cell and shooting him dead years after the fact is not only unnecessary, but barbaric.

The position of other countries and states shows that CP is all about revenge and not about prevention.

1 Reply

Killing people is the best solution.

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