California Voters Approve Gay-Marriage Ban

@engineer,

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My take is that the sacred institution of marriage is a myth

as all sacred things are....

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Each single marriage is sacred between a couple

obviously, but every single idea you have of what a marriage is comes from outside you, from the collective. This is WHY education is so important to preserving the collective and its culture. Our education today comes from living life(interactions with others), schools, media and role models. A very few still get some education from the church. From almost every quarter the taught conception of marriage is dramatically changed for just one generation ago. The allowing gays to be married will not change my marriage, it will not change much my kids because they are almost fully formed now, but it will dramatically change how my grand kids view marriage. The fear is that they will see even less value in marriage than my kids generation will. The value of marriage has been declining rapidly for a couple of decades now, some say for much longer but I have not looked at the question deeply enough to know.

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@hawkeye10,

When you accept what the "collective" believes to be right, it ignores the Constitution, and the equal treatment of all Americans.

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@cicerone imposter,

well much like driving , just being able to breath in the united states should be a privilage much less putting down on paper that you are going to hell

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@cicerone imposter,

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When you accept what the "collective" believes to be right, it ignores the Constitution, and the equal treatment of all Americans

I love how the amendment written to make sure that blacks are treated as 1 full human has been corrupted into being the amendment that says that all beliefs and acts must be treated as equal unless the majority can prove grave danger from doing so. It is definitely time for a rewrite

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@hawkeye10,

Yes 14 year old gay kids kill themselves, does that sound like grave enough danger to you? Young gays like Matthew Shepherd are murdered on fences and you are worried about getting it up with your wife if gays are treated equally under the law... Charlie Howard was throw over a bridge and drown in Bangor Maine because he was gay, he was a personal friend of mine... Though Portland Maine has one of the lowest crime rates in the entire country and it also has the third largest gay population in the country... You don't suppose the low crime rate is due to tolerance of gays, racial integration and acceptance brought on by the presence of so many gays?

I wonder how much of a richer world this would be if so many gays had not so sadly gone before us, without hope or one single bit of compassion. We here can easily now imagine that twenty or thirty years ago if you had been old enough you would be fighting blacks in the same way you are fighting gays now so you could keep your seat on a bus and not have to sit next to a black person... Your argument would be that blacks hurt traditional marriage by interracial marriage... Even though you are married to a white person they hurt your marriage morale... What exactly does that say about your over all character? It stinks rotten to the core... Many bisexuals choose to live gay lifestyles, they could make babies and and contribute to overpopulation but they chose not to... My boyfriend once said to me, at least we can't make each other pregnant... he already has two children and does not want anymore...

Your constant banter about gays and marriage seems more like a personal problem... that, I think being gay is something many would choose over your own, err, "issues". The only thing that gay marriage will change in ten years is your grand kids won't grow up prejudice like you...

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@RexRed,

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Yes 14 year old gay kids kill themselves,

AND? Teen Suicide is a significant problem, we know this. Do you have any facts that indicate that the rate for gays is higher than for hetro's. Considering that you are trying to paint gays as victims I certainly hope so.

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Many bisexuals choose to live gay lifestyles

Here's a hint....you might not want to advertise this, as it tends to destroy your story about how gays are victims.

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@hawkeye10,

So I checked myself, the allegation of the gay rate being high is based upon only two studies, one 15 years old the other 25. and we have this

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Lack of Studies = Lack of Funds
FAP stands out in contrast to existing studies and points to a crucial information gap. Youth Risk Behavior surveys conducted by several states and a biannual national survey by the Center for Disease Control don’t query sexual orientation, or how bullying and harassment contributes to suicidal thoughts or attempts among LGBT teens.

This Achilles heel in the CDC’s statistics is well known among researchers, who complain of the lack of a clear national picture of the problem. All that would be academic were it not that clear stats are needed before legislatures or governmental agencies will commit funding.

Ryan describes the CDC survey as "very political in terms of what questions are included." Adding questions about sexual orientation would be a positive step, but "what happens at the state and local level is not just a question of politics, it’s also a question of space. When something is added to a survey, something is changed or taken away."

The Massachusetts Department of Elementary and Secondary Education (in collaboration with the CDC) conducted its own Youth Risk Behavior Survey. Its 2005 results found that gay teens had suicide rates nearly double those of their peers. They hurt themselves on purpose at three times the rate of other teens. They were four times more likely to attempt suicide in the past year.

Although specific only to the situation in Massachusetts, the results are useful tools in the effort to lobby for and receive state and city level funding for preventative programs targeting LGBT teens.

Joe Kosciw, research director of the Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network, says that states mirror the national gap in providing comprehensive LGBT suicide information. GLSN’s own 2007 National School Climate Survey found only 11 states and the District of Columbia protecting students from bullying and harassment based on sexual orientation, and only seven states and DC protecting gay or trans students.

http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc2=features&sc3=&id=87924

The gay pressure groups have gobs of money to lobby for law changes so that they can get married, but none for this, why is that do you suppose? Maybe because the facts are that gays are not at more risk, because being gay is about as cool as being a alcoholic in a 12 step program now (ie pretty damn cool)? As in not a problem? And having a scientific study that shows this gets in the way of the political agenda?

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@hawkeye10,

The "you're a hypocrite" argument is just another form of the ad hominem logical fallacy. (Ad Hominem Tu Quoque to be precise.)

Try arguing the merits of the idea, rather than attacking people.

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hawkeye10 sounds like an ignorant redneck and you can bet he's republican.

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@hawkeye10,

You want comparisons? That's a losing battle; more heteros rape and are guilty of incest. They are also guilty of buying young children to satisfy their sexual urge. Learn about what happens to children in Thailand; even Americans go there to satisfy their sickness.

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@hawkeye10,

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The gay pressure groups have gobs of money to lobby for law changes.

Do you mean it could be a business hawk. After all it is the USA.

I'll campaign for you all to have a different sexual partner every night, rendered eager by certain mechanical and pharmceutical technologies, if you will all send me $20 and take out a subscription to my monthly newsletter etc etc. That's what the homosexuals gather on Clapham Common for and even our pub car park gets occasional visits from doggers.

If they get this law change will the pressure groups disband? Are there other laws they might seek to change. If the word "marriage" is not the most important aspect of this business why is it that we have all agreed not to use a wide range of terms which were in general use not so long ago to apply to homosexuals?

I understand that 30,000 homosexual couples got hitched during the period before Prop 8 was democratically approved. Are there no studies yet on how things are turning out?

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@spendius,

Why would gays want marriage if they wanted a new partner every night? Make some sense please. I know I am not always the most sensical person but this one even has me boggled... The premise is that gays would be less promiscuous if they had marriage bonding and equality. Yes, I know gays who are married and still fool around but not at all like they used to. Though, the novelty of fooling around eventually wears off leaving only the marriage commitment.

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@RexRed,

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Why would gays want marriage if they wanted a new partner every night? Make some sense please.

Try it yourself. I never said they did. I was talking about pressure groups and their funding. If there's funding, as hawk said, of pressure groups then there is organisation and with that comes hierarchy and in the USA one naturally expects an entrepreneur to be running the show. He doesn't need to agree with the objective of the pressure group.

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The premise is that gays would be less promiscuous if they had marriage bonding and equality

I don't think that is always true. Some are, like hets, libertines. Obviously the focus will be on the respectable ones. Not being one to stoop to such tactics I gave the growing het's dogging manifestation an airing.

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Dogging actually derives from the term 'walking the dog'. It is a pastime that has evolved from blokes taking their dogs for walks and stumbling across couples at it in bushes etc. They originally only spied on these couples. The 'sport' has now become much more organized and seedy - with regular meeting places, and more or less a free-for-all spirit. This year the newly created Ultimate Dogging Championships was held at Rivington nr Chorley, Lancs. Their were many disciplines including 10 Man Train, Pearly Rain, and Most Extreme Slapper. The TV rights to next year's event are currently in negotiation with a Dutch Satellite TV station.
"I'm just taking the dog out for a walk love"
"Okay, don't be 5 hours this time, and try not to get so muddy"

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Though, the novelty of fooling around eventually wears off leaving only the marriage commitment.

How awful.

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@spendius,

Odd, you as self professed hetero know all about, err, "dogging", and I as a gay from a large city full of gays have never even heard of the term, till now that is... Maybe it is because I don't own a dog and I value my own word and bond... I was taught years ago that this is the only way to expect respect back from others... Some, if not most gays do value respect after being denied it for so long.

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@RexRed,

Don't you call it cruising or something?

Are you denying that a significant number of homosexual men are highly promiscuous? If some have ceased being out of fear of disease that doesn't alter their motivations.

I understood that being promiscuous deserved, to some eyes , respect and that those who think that are contemptuous of attempts at respectable domesticity. Some hets are like that.

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@spendius,

It is not only gays who are capable of catching disease.. I have heard of cruising and promiscuous gays I usually steer clear of. If they are out to the bars every night even if they are heterosexuals, I personally would rather stay home and cuddle up with a good PDF file... One might argue it is the seemingly hopeless lack of marriage in the gay community that fosters such promiscuity. Gays are criticized for their parades every year but they are MILD compared to when straight bikers descend on a whole town and females are flashing their breasts and hetero males urinate their cheap beer all over the city sidewalks...

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@jcboy,

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hawkeye10 sounds like an ignorant redneck and you can bet he's republican

feel free to show up with facts, and I consider myself a Zen socialist who despises both republicans and democrats...I want both parties replaced

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@RexRed,

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One might argue it is the seemingly hopeless lack of marriage in the gay community that fosters such promiscuity.

Hang on Rex. Nobody is suggesting homosexuals can't settle down to domestic bliss. It is wanting to call it "marriage" which is the issue here. Officially I mean. We don't use the word marriage for het couples who have been living together for years and have kids. One might use the word if one thinks they are married but those who know they are not don't. To those who do know they are "partners" and not husbands and wives. For the purpose of tax, wills, benefits etc they are treated as if they are married. But they are not married. With homosexuals such things are called "civil unions". But I don't know the legal implications of that. Whether they need to divorce, for example, to start another union.

Is the promiscuity thing linked to age?

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@spendius,

spendi, You have not provided any convincing argument why "gay marriage" is not acceptable to the likes of people like you.

Explanations such as "sanctity," "to bear children," and "children need both a father and a mother" has no validity to them, and they have all been explained why.

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@cicerone imposter,

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spendi, You have not provided any convincing argument why "gay marriage" is not acceptable to the likes of people like you.

Explanations such as "sanctity," "to bear children," and "children need both a father and a mother" has no validity to them, and they have all been explained why.

By heck ci. You are one lamebrain. You simply can't see that your use of "convincing" is entirely subjective. If you don't think the arguments I have put from democratic voting, from language and literature and from married hets not wanting to be associated with homosexual activities through being grouped under the same label, it does not mean they are not valid arguments. Can you not get it into your skull that they are convincing arguments to some people. If only arguments are valid if they are convincing to you we might as well stick you in the White House and cancel future elections. And this thread.

The "sanctity" is an attempt to give the partnership stickability. I have never argued that children need a mother and father. Nor would I ever do.

You have explained nothing.

A divorced person cannot be married in a Catholic church and I think an Anglican church. Prince Charles was denied a church wedding because Camilla's husband is still alive and in the church's eyes still her husband. To many they are "living over the brush" as we say.

I consider the formal adoption of children by homosexual couples to be child abuse. I certainly feel sorry for the one kid in a class who is in such a position. Kids are not mealy-mouthed.

1 Reply

California Voters Approve Gay-Marriage Ban

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