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California Voters Approve Gay-Marriage Ban

 
 
djjd62
 
  3  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 06:55 am
i still don't get how government and marriage are tied together

they shouldn't be, a church shouldn't have to marry anyone if they don't want to, as for who controls marriage, **** the churches and the states, not sure how the whole justice of the peace thing works, if it's not a federal thing, create a federal department that can do the same thing (this let's states off the hook, they don't have to like it, they just have to obey it)

marriages should be one thing, legal protection under the law should be something else, a legal document allowing power of attorney, spousal benefits etc.

that should be a mandatory requirement for any marriage (church or JoP) or civil union, make the church and state two separate things (like they should be and supposedly are)

something i don't get, if a church won't allow you to marry for a particular reason, why do you want to be a member of that church
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 07:09 am
I think when people attack prop 8 by saying they have endured mental anguish they are setting the stage for making the Mormon church and others (hopefully these bishops) to pay reparations for obstructing equality in this free land we live in. I don't want reparations myself, I just want these churches out of my bedroom and out of my life...

Should a black person who endured slavery be able to collect reparations on mental anguish? Should the slave owner be obligated to pay them? I believe so...

These churches are the direct cause of this unfair law, they should be responsible for what their actions have caused in grief and hardship for gays.

I believe these churches need to pay for meddling on the wrong side of this human rights issue... The lawyers are setting the stage for reparation to gays... If others have experienced even on tenth of the anguish I feel, it is only right that they be compensated for their mental anguish too.

Just look at me I have notably been a wreck here on this forum and it is directly tied to this unfair law and the evil money of these heartless bishops and elders...

The further the churches peruse this up the judicial ladder the more they should be forced to pay to gays in the end...

To borrow a line from Jesus, "Feed my lambs".
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 07:45 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

I could never figure out why the judge ordered the parties to present testimony or why he didn't simply rule on issue as a matter of law. Judge Walker explained in his opinion that there were "significant disputed factual questions" that prevented a summary disposition of the case (p. 10), but I'm not sure why the factual questions came into issue in the first place.

I heard one review of the opinion saying that by making it a ruling on facts that it has a much higher chance of withstanding appeal.
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 07:54 am
http://www.religionnews.com/index.php?/pressreleases/as_judge_rules_on_prop_8_new_survey_finds_prop_8_wouldnt_pass_today/
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:22 am
@engineer,
Yep, just read something about that too.

Quote:
Once you get done with that, the sheer breadth and weight of the facts assembled make me wonder how in the hell any judge would vote to overturn this case. Appellate judges can't really overturn facts; they can only point out errors in admissibility or weight given to evidence and order a retrial. Given the factual record assembled, I cannot fathom that a retrial would result in anything different except giving the plaintiffs more evidence and time to develop their case.


and

Quote:
What strikes me about Judge Walker's opinion is the amount of evidence he included there - numbered, paraphrased facts with direct citation to and quotation from the trial record. As a lawyer, I can't say that I have ever seen a judge include that much of the trial transcript in an opinion. He would have done this to make his record so that when the case is appealed - as everyone knows it will be - he has included enough direct evidence produced at trial to support his application of the law. His clerks made that trial record their bitch, and Judge Walker took that dog for a walk.

Whether the appeals court overturns on the application of law is a different issue. But it's not going to be a fact issue that does it. And then the way that he completely flicks away Prop 8 proponents' experts' testimony. The man is smart.


(Emphases mine.)

(Both quotes from readers of Andrew Sullivan's "Daily Dish.")
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:29 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
I heard one review of the opinion saying that by making it a ruling on facts that it has a much higher chance of withstanding appeal.

I heard that too on NPR this morning:
Quote:

Northwestern University law professor Andrew Koppelman says U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker increased the odds of surviving appeal by basing his decision on his finding of fact — something appeals courts usually defer to — rather than his interpretation of the law.

In his lengthy ruling, Walker said the voter-approved ban on same-sex marriage violated the constitutional rights of due process and equal protection, and prevented California from fulfilling its constitutional obligation to provide marriages on an equal basis.

"He did not say that as a matter of law, gay people are a protected class under the 14th amendment," Koppelman said. "He said that as a matter of fact, the justifications for this law that were offered by its defenders rested on factually false premises. And it's very hard for a court on appeal to say he was wrong about that."

That's true in normal circumstances, but I'm not sure it's true in this circumstance. In normal circumstances, an appellate court will defer to the trial court's factual determinations unless they are clearly erroneous. This, however, is a case where the court was creating a legislative record for a citizen's initiative -- something that is, as far as I can see, unprecedented. In this situation, I'm not sure why the judge's factual determinations should be given any deference whatsoever.

It's telling what Prof. Koppelman said to NPR about the judge's ruling: "He said that as a matter of fact, the justifications for this law that were offered by its defenders rested on factually false premises." That, I think, is far beyond the competence of the court. California, for better or worse, has decided that it wants citizen initiatives. As far as I know, there is no requirement in the California constitution that citizen initiatives must be based on factually sound premises. For the court to strike down an initiative because it isn't factually sound, therefore, strikes me as a judicial usurpation of the legislative function (in this case, the legislative function as exercised by the citizenry through the initiative process).

The citizens of California are entitled to pass whatever initiative they want, whether it's a good idea or a bad idea. It's not up to the courts to strike down an initiative because it thinks that the citizens must have been nuts to pass something that the court disagrees with. If the court is to invalidate a citizen initiative, it must do so on legal grounds, not factual ones.

Now, as I've mentioned before, I haven't read the entire opinion. Maybe some of my doubts and reservations will be resolved when I do. But my initial reaction remains that this is a deeply flawed decision.
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:45 am
http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 02:09 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
That's true in normal circumstances, but I'm not sure it's true in this circumstance.
I agree, some piss-ant district judge trying to dictate to SCOTUS how they need to approach a case is going to piss them off. It is more likely to prod them into action than prevent them from taking action to overturn this ruling.

THis ruling was too cute by half, it will not do what it was clearly designed to do.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:12 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
It's always some elastic clause that they can simply use as a blunt weapon to deny the people the right of self-determination.

When a straight majority votes that members of the gay minority can't marry each other, how is that self-determination? I would call it a denial of self-determination.

Funny, I thought the rule was one man (or woman) one vote. Proposition 8 was passed in a fair election, but now it doesn't exist, and this isn't an isolated incident. Now, whenever the conservatives fairly pass a law the liberals don't like, they'll overturn it, and it's never something that's actually in the Constitution. Our vote is now meaningless, which is very, very serious.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:19 pm
@RexRed,
RexRed wrote:

True, I have my own bias about this... It is part of the declaration of independence, it is part of civil rights. THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS...

It is not equality to allow some people happiness and deny others the same happiness. Either abolish marriage or allow it for all consenting adults the right to marry the person (singular) of their choice.

Some people marry and they divorce and when they remarry the should have the right to marry who they feel is the best person for them. The law shouldn't be dictating which sex they have to love. Just because the Mormons can pay huge sums of money to scare people into responding inhumanely does not take away from the truth that the pursuit of happiness is for all not not just a select few.

There was a time when the general population also voted to keep blacks enslaved too... Is the electorate always right? HELL NO! They were certainly WRONG about keeping blacks enslaved for so many terrible years... The electorate was WRONG about keeping women from voting too and they are wrong in California about not allowing gays the sacred right to follow their dreams and their hearts to the happiness that others are free to enjoy.


My vote is now meaningless. If I get a majority to agree with me and pass a law, even a large majority, you will just get one or a handful of people to nullify my vote.

No one may take away my right to vote. This is really the call for revolution. I mean that seriously.

Judges aren't allowed to rule on their personal opinions about what the law should say. It should be an easy matter for you to find and report to me the exact section of the Constitution that this law violated.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:21 pm
omg, brandon debating rexred, nothing could be more bizarre.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:22 pm
@Brandon9000,
Equal protection is in the constitution Brandon.

A majority can't vote to violate the constitution. They can vote to change the constitution but that takes more than a simple majority.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:22 pm
@Brandon9000,
Can I get together with a bunch of people and vote away your right to express your political views?

No?
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 08:40 pm
@DrewDad,
can you say "mormon?"
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 09:11 pm
@parados,
parados, I agree; I believe those arguing that the citizens can make stupid laws is not the issue here. It's about usurping the constitution.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 09:29 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon wrote:
Funny, I thought the rule was one man (or woman) one vote.

No, that's only half of the rule. Granted, it's true that all government action must be legitimized by votes. But that doesn't mean people can vote for anything they want, and what the majority wants will be guaranteed to be legitimate. In particular, as a long-standing Supreme Court precedent puts it, "fundamental rights may not be submitted to a vote; they depend on the outcome of no election." And marriage is a fundamental right, according to another well-established Supreme Court precedent.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 10:08 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
And marriage is a fundamental right, according to another well-established Supreme Court precedent.
Apparently our representatives can however define marriage in such a way that it does not apply to gays considering that we have such a law on the federal books. What is your argument that citizens dont have the right to define marriage as a hetero institution? Might this be the grounds on which the cal law is affirmed?
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 10:47 pm
@RexRed,
Quote:
Should a black person who endured slavery be able to collect reparations on mental anguish? Should the slave owner be obligated to pay them? I believe so...


Show me ANYONE in this country today that meets this status, and we will talk about reparations.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  4  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2010 11:08 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
What is your argument that citizens dont have the right to define marriage as a hetero institution?

It's identical to my argument why citizens don't have the right to define marriage as a same-race institution.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2010 12:02 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
This, however, is a case where the court was creating a legislative record for a citizen's initiative -- something that is, as far as I can see, unprecedented. In this situation, I'm not sure why the judge's factual determinations should be given any deference whatsoever.

I don't understand the problem. I would if you had a general objection against courts looking at legislative records at all. Some justices, most prominently Scalia, make a point of ignoring it and focusing on the language of a law alone. (I think you once said you sympathize with this particular part of his approach.)

But to a judge who does pay attention to the legislative record behind a law, what difference does it make who the legislator is? Why pay attention to the legislative record when the law-giver is a parliament voting on a bill, but not when it's an electorate voting on a citizen's initiative?
 

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