More proof: Those wacky libs in California...

Farms are not different in CA than in other states. When Prop 2 passes, and the egg industry in CA is destroyed, small designer label farms - such as the one you 'shop' at - will not be sufficient to feed the millions of people in this state. People will either go without, or buy eggs shipped in from out of state.

And the eggs on those farms will be obtained just as the farms in CA used to obtain them. Do you get it? So we'll be paying fuel and transportation costs for eggs that were obtained by the same methods that were outlawed in CA.

But the egg industry in those other states will grow, of course, to pick up the slack from the industry shut down in our state. So your hens will still be caged; just not in CA. But be assured, we'll still be eating their eggs.

I guess those of you with access to quaint little organic 'farms' will feel pretty good about yourselves. I'll be in pretty good shape, too, where I live, in my rural neck of the woods.

I wonder how those in the inner cities will cope? But you libs/progressives, when it really, truly, comes down to it, don't give a **** about 'those people' do you?

And to correct one of my earlier postings, the LA Times and SF Chron actually came out opposed to Prop 2; they must be thinking of their poor, don't you think, cyclops?

Anyway, you wanted links?

http://www.thecalifornian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008809080318

http://cfbf.com/agalert/AgAlertStory.cfm?ID=1131&ck=FE709C654EAC84D5239D1A12A4F71877

http://beefbites.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/veterinarians-say-california-proposition-would-hurt-the-animals-its-trying-to-help/

The first link includes opinions by Don Bell, a poultry specialist emeritus with the University of California Cooperative Extension. He developed the current poultry methods in place, and thinks you guys are wacky.

The others address disease concerns...

Now, how about you taking a stab at the science? You spout nonsense without any science or facts to back you other than what you think an animal 'must be feeling.' Like the wack-job trying to talk to one of my neighbor's hogs, you have applied human traits to farm animals.

But watching Charlotte's Web too many times will do that do you. I know you have good intentions; you just don't live in the real world.

Is it time for me to call you on your bullshit?

Or haven't you figured out that's exactly what I have been doing?

What, the creator of the currently used system, and a website devoted to 'promoting America's beef producers in an increasingly hostile environment' disagree that animals need to have enough space to move around?

Shocking!



I do believe that animals, though I like to eat them, deserve to have an environment during their life which allows them some sort of happiness or natural existence. I'm not persuaded by your opinions, or your rather meaningless links.

And what happened to the free market? If people here in CA want more eggs that are from cage-free - or at least, larger caged - hens, then the market will spring up for it and businesses will grow. Isn't this what you right-wingers are always spouting? You certainly have not swayed me with your weak attempt at an economic argument.

I've had fun stringing you along today, but I think I'm pretty much done wasting my time with you on this issue. Prop. 2 is likely to pass, so at the end of the day, it's really immaterial whether or not you or I agree with it.

Cycloptichorn

OK, the Wacky Lib thing was out of line, I'll admit it.

But in my defense, what happened to A2k? I only come around here during elections; smart people with strong opinions, it was a great place to discuss events. Even during Kerry/Bush, as heated as that was, one could have interesting give and take without the bitter name calling.

So I'm away a couple, four years, come back, and whoa; lots of strident people more apt to place party and ideology ahead of common sense. This placed always leaned left, which is why I liked it; it made for better discussions when I sought out points of view other than what one may find on the right wing boards. And if you disagreed with people here, you could count on mostly an intelligent argument.

But now? This place resembles kos more than the A2k I remember. Same people, but I guess what you hear about BDS is true; they’re pissed, and seem to have lost all reason.

I’ve been posting/arguing for a month or so, but I’m tiring and about to exit. No one will debate; I post a thread critical of Biden or Obama or questioning the logic of a lib/progressive, and instead of discussion, I’m called names for posting it. The Wacky Lib title was a way to get people to respond, I guess.

Anyway, I hear ya on the Libertarian vote; why waste it? Every once in a while I'll hear about something like the Free State project and it will warm my cackles, but it's just wheels spinning...

I agree with you about taxes, the military, etc. Roadways, tariffs, even environmental concerns are all places where we need gov.

But when I see a state school bureaucracy that duplicates the county school bureaucracy, which in turn is redundant on the local school district, it drives me nuts; are you aware how many people in this state it takes to put one child in the classroom? It's ridiculous. The state also has an outlandish department of justice that is redundant on city police departments and county sheriff’s offices. They don't make arrests, conducts few investigations, yet earn more than most cops and get that 90% retirement at age 50. And there are hundreds of them. State social services? Again, redundant on county agencies, they earn more, have better retirements, and there are thousands of them across the state.

So, I hear you about what is necessary. And I agree. But there is so much that is not necessary in this state. And, these are mostly new jobs, all put in place in the last decade or so.

And it is this that bugs me. All these jobs are strong, state union positions. When elections roll around, guess which party they support? It's like a never-ending circle, and I'm afraid it's going to get much worse before it gets better.

So, as you probably know, our road taxes do not go the roads, thus we have to pass a bond. Our gas taxes don't go to road repair, we have to pass a bond. Our sales taxes, which is supposed to go to the general fund of our cities and counties to fund police and fire protection, is raided by the state.

And our state government continues to grow. I think this goes beyond a repub or dem thing, dtom. Our state is on the path to ruin. This latest prop will drive another industry out of the state; while I agree with some aspects of it re calves and hogs, I think it’s off the mark with hens. People will lose jobs, less taxes will come into state coffers, yet libs/progressives will look at Prop 2 as only the first step in revising state farm practices…

Well then, then why does it matter that Cyclo hasnt been to a farm in CA, when he's seen and worked on farms plenty in TX?

So much wiggling.

okay. if you want to know the truth about a2k, as i see it ?

there's at least a little merit to your complaint. i pretty much go with the flow on most social issues, from a liberal's point of view. but when i don't, i get flamed. hard, and by folks that i agree with on nearly everything else. similar, uhh, discourse comes my way from people of the rightist persuasion when they think i'm "too liberal". coming and going, i tell ya.

ya know what? that's where the whole thing about free speech comes in. yeah, i have a right to tell someone like ebrown ( hey e, not trying to drag you in here. we've been over it a gazillion times), that i have a lot of reservations about the immigration reform thing. and in return, with free speech in mind, ebrown has the right to tell me i'm full of it. and ebrown has on numerous occassions. we just see it different.

that's what makes a horse race.

let me clue you in here about why people of a center to left predeliction are less inclined to "discuss" a lot of things;

for the last 8 years, anyone who wasn't down with the whole george bush thing have been called just about everything but their name. i'm old enough to know that, absent the hard hats chasing hippies en masse through the streets, worse than the 60's, this has been a horrible time for anyone with a divergent point of view.

**** dude, we're really tired of it. how long are even the most pacifistic citizens of america (and yeah, we are citizens of the same country) supposed to just stand there and put up with the constant accusations of "you're unpatriotic", "you love the terrorists", "why do you hate america?", "you secular progressives will ruin the country" before it's like, "****... get offa me".

for many years we've had to listen to all of this crap about how "we" are out of the mainstream. that might have a little steam behind it if bush had had something like a landslide victory in either election. but, he didn't.

so what that says is; bush maybe won with 51% in 2004. so does that mean that the other 49% are out of the mainstream?

nearly half of america is out of step with america?

how the hell does that work??

it doesn't.

8 years of this stuff and center and left america is supposed to lay down yet again without a fight for what they believe in?

that dog not only does not hunt; he won't even get up off the porch. dogs, man. for the goofy critters they are, they really have a great perception of profit and loss analysis.

which is why, in my humble estimation, the gop ran mccain.

i meant to write this in a post on another thread about a bumper sticker i saw at a light (one of about 6 ) in the town where my other house is in tennessee. it was on a f-150 with a tool buddy strapped across the bed. i suspect that it replaced a "w/04" sticker.

it read; "i never thought i'd miss nixon" i laughed my ass off for three blocks. i caouldn't get rid of the guy. i'd stop laughing and he'd just pass me again. there it was.. "i never thought i'd miss nixon". tears, i tell ya.

and here's another; "republicans, you're fired"

believe me, alv, that town is anything but a hotbed of liberal activism.

get the drift? even the base is pissed off. they are joe sixpack. and gawdammit, he can't afford one.

anyway, if you perceive a less warm and fuzzy discourse from people that are of the non-bush follower type, it's because we've had enough.

enough of refighting the revoution of the 60's.

enough of being relegated to moonbat status because we think that iraq was wrong and continues to be so.

enough of watching president "man of the people" cluster fudge his way through problem after problem.

enough of hearing about america being "one nation under god" instead of the original intent of "e pluribus unum" and constant complaints from a few religious zealots about how the culture sucks because it's not the good old days.

enough of hearing how alternative energy is hippy-dippy nonsense and we gotta "drill, baby, drill". wellll... yeah, we still have to drill a bit, but hell, if we had started getting alternatives together back in the early 70's the first time the middle easterners yanked our collective american doink, we would be having the last laugh today. with out oil, they haven't got anything but camels and camel poop. seems like a limited market to me.

in any case, imagine how you would feel if it was you who had to hear a bunch of crap everrrry, singggle day about what an unpatriotic, enemy comforting, america hating, godless piece of crap you were for years on end...

just because you voted for "the other guy" ?

sounds like a receipe for piss-ed off-edness to me.

i'm hoping that at some point we can, as a country, get passed this nonsense and relate to each other as fellow americans who may have different points of view with out all of the witch trial histrionics.

if we don't, we aren't going to make it, bro.

hope things work out with your chicken farm.

dtom

btw, alv... if you want to get further into the whole growth of california government thing with you, i'm up for it.

but i did want to respond to you about your comments on a2k. love it or hate it, it still winds up being a lot of fun for me in most cases. and a little frustrating at times too.

comes with territory, dude.

See my new sig line. It explains a lot.

What has happened to A2K is the same thing that happened in DC. A bunch of wacknut liberal douchebag batbrains took over the place.

Lone,

Your arguments at times make no sense


Do trucks drive themselves? Or will trucks require people driving them?


The purpose of factory farms is to reduce labor. Eliminating factory farms could well raise the price but to say it means job loss is probably not true. Non factory farms will produce more eggs and require more labor. Trucking from out state will require more drivers.

Your comments about chickens and how they act made me roll my eyes. I probably helped raise and butcher more chickens by the time I was 16 than you have eaten in the last 10 years. Yes, hundreds of chickens kept confined in close quarters will peck each other. They are not cannibals if left to run in larger areas. The idea that chickens left to run free lay eggs in feces but chickens at factory farms don't is false. You don't know what you are talking about.

Your argument that factory hens are healthy because they are laying is one of the silliest I have ever heard. They are healthy because the sick and non laying hens are quickly culled. A free range chicken can live to be 7 years old and still be laying. The average age of a factory chicken is less than 2 years. They are laying eggs for a year or less before they are sent to slaughter at those factory farms. (One site listed the average slaughter age as 78 weeks)

And you are ignoring the big, fat, ugly, anti-human shitfarce you are in bed with.

really? just when did that happen?

I see you are resorting to your usual well thought out arguments.

Declare victory and go home?

Thanks for providing all the links to the science based arguments you posed proving chickens are 'happier' when they allowed to free range...

Oh, you didn't. Because there are none.

Lot's of 'feelings' about what is right, which how libs/progressives seem to run their world. And this is not always a bad thing. But sometimes it is short-sighted, emotional, and brings doom.

Which continues to happen in California - hence, my post.

Thanks for proving my point, cyclops. You're child-like behavior, while at times refreshing, is a great example of why our state is on the path to ruin...

ALV, you are the one who is taking the Aff side of this argument; it is up to you to provide evidence to support your position. Your links to industry groups and people with a vested interest in the current system did not do this, or have any science in them at all, really.

I suggest you read Parados' post here:

http://able2know.org/topic/123659-2#post-3432294

For a nice listing of the errors in your reasoning.

If you don't like CA, get the f*ck out. We won't miss you.

Cycloptichorn

Being that he tends to take the position he does - most city folk tend to suffer from anthropomorphism - I question whether he has ever been to a real working farm or ranch, yes.

My point about eggs produced in other states - as they will continue to be after the ban in CA - is CA will simply import these eggs, produced in the 'bad' way. We'll just pay more, due to transportation costs. And there will be more pollution, traffic congestion...

You haven't explained why there wouldn't be a rise in demand for those farms which produce cage-free eggs, ALV. The market will adjust like it always does.

Cycloptichorn

Thank you. Finally, someone ready to talk facts.

Trucking from out of state will require more labor; more jobs; all on out of state payrolls, with out of state payroll taxes, property taxes; truckers will be based out of state and will thus spend their pay in that state.

CA will get taxes on fuel purchased in state, and some fees via DMV permits, but it will be an overwhelming loss to the state across the board, income wise.

Chickens are not cannibals if left to run in larger areas? You might indicate how large, and when does it become economically unfeasible to quit ranching? When the amount of land, and what the state charges in property taxes and other fees costs more to support than hens times acres, when does the cost of raising hens/chickens become too much? Even the 'inexpensive' areas of CA, where many of these farming operations take place, are becoming too expensive -and urbanized - to remain profitable.

And when has it become wrong to cull unhealthy hens? One of the problems of freeranging chickens is disease issues, not being able to cull individual chickens in time to prevent the infection of a whole flock. How much area are you indicating?

I haven't brought up the arguments some opponents of Prop 2 are voicing about bird flu, as I thought they were disingenuous. But with the amount of space you seem to be indicating to prevent cannibalism, maybe it should be addressed?

Anyway, could you provide links to your arguments? I don't question your credentials, you're obviously knowledgeable. I would just like to know where you obtained your 'cannibal' info from.

As I stated earlier, I'm not opposed to all aspects of Prop 2. I just believe it is short sighted, and will not solve anything, as chicken farms will simply be moved out of state where they will continue to produce eggs in the same manner for California consumers.

Of course you won't miss me. I'm someone who questions the lib/progressive mindset, points out the fallacy of your nonsense, sheds a light on your corruption, and tries to hinder the 'movement' towards even more and bigger gov. And you love big government.

In a few years, if people like you have your way in the People's Paradise, people like you will be demanding people like me to be silenced. Funny, how the more lib/progressive one becomes the more close-minded they are, and the less dissension they tolerate.

Isn't that how it eventually works out in your kind of society?

In the meantime, raise taxes, increase the bureaucracy, drive business out of state, drop deeper into the deficit hole, and sing Kumbaya.

The feds will bail you out, won't they?

So, I probably will leave when the tax burden become intolerable. One less taxpayer, contributing to the state, leaving for a better tomorrow. It's happening every day, hundreds of times. Now that the housing market has gone down the tubes, look for the floodgates to open.

And what happens when the taxpayers are gone, cyclops? Who do the libs/progressives lean on then to fund your Nirvana? Business? You guys are driving them out of state, too (and their employees, with their disposable income).

Here's hoping green energy kicks in for the state... Oh, wait. With worker comp costs, regulations, and state fees, most new green companies are incorporating elsewhere, mostly Texas, AZ, NV, and New Mexico.

You wingnuts have ruined this state.

Today's Sac Bee reports the state guards make 40% more than guards in any other state or federal prison. More than any CA city jail or county jail.

Why? Because they are the biggest players in the Dem Party, ensuring Dem control of the assembly and senate. They, the teacher’s union, and the cop/fire unions prevented any reform of the state’s public pension system, where a state guard is able to retire at age 50 with up to 90% of his pay (which at that point is often $75K; not bad for a prison guard with a high school education). But hey, it’s a vote, right?

It is truly disgusting...

Right. Nobody is interested in your rehashing of many of the same, tired Republican arguments that we've all seen before, ALV.

I must say that prognostications of the future coming from Republicans are usually laughable, though Why do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

Nobody is 'demanding silence' from you, ALV. Merely commenting that you don't know what you are talking about and are not representative of the CA population.

'Sheds a light on your corruption,' do you even believe the dreck you write? Seriously. The Republican party is facing an abyss, because corruption has overcome all other concerns within it. The Dems stand to gain not only the presidency but more seats in the house and Senate as well. Yet not a peep from you about that

Cycloptichorn

This is what I find so refreshing about libs/progressives. You guys have such a child-like view of the real world; it does give me a bit of hope. It is true, if the masses looked at the world as you do, it would be a better place. No war. No hunger. No violence.

But, the real world is out there with real people.

Why won't there be a demand for those farms which produce cage-free eggs? It is simple economics, cy. The single mom who is trying to feed her kids on a salary that sucks - who voted for Prop 2 because she thought the chickens in Chicken Run were cute - really doesn't give a **** where her eggs come from. When she is shopping at the Super Walmart, she is going to pick out the cheapest eggs available.

She'll be pissed, because eggs are more expensive than they used to be. But she won't even glance at the signs bragging a cage free this, are free range that. She'll just look to see which is the cheapest dozen she can find.

And what will the cheapest dozen still be? The eggs produced on the out of state cage farms you guys hate. They will still be more expensive than they used to be when they were raised in CA, though, because of transportation costs. But they'll still be less expensive than designer farm eggs.

So, our mom, like every other consumer on a tight budget, will select the cheap eggs (just as they do now). Will the cage free market increase a little? Probably a bit, but not much.

This is what you libs/progressives don't understand. The free market will dictate people's choices, not a 'fad of the moment' movement. Those of you who demand cage free eggs will have a bit more selection; maybe a bit better price, but I doubt it. I realize this is an important issue for many animal activists, but in reality, the vast majority of Californians really don't give a ****. Sure, they will vote for Prop 2, based on the emotionalism of the moment. But unfortunately, nothing will change, other than yet another industry being driven out of state.

Are changes needed? Sure. But not this way.

I've highlighted your error; you assume to know the motivations and actions of others, when in fact you do not know the motivations and actions of others.



Evidence of this? None has been presented yet, just assertions. I submit that you don't know the first thing about egg prices, ALV.

This whole issue is one in which you have attempted to use Republican social and economic theory to explain the outcome of a situation, while ignoring the complete failures of said theories to predict actual real-world outcomes for some time now - not to mention to properly govern our nation

Why can't you just be honest and say that you don't know what the effect of the ban will be? Because you don't have it in ya.

Cycloptichorn