More proof: Those wacky libs in California...

Written by one who has done no real research into the deplorable conditions that many hens are kept in their whole lives...

But heck, who gives a damn if an animal is ever allowed outside a cage, for a single minute, their entire life? Long as I get my omelette! At a cheap price!

You really represent the uncaring, asshole part of modern Conservatism, ALV.

Cycloptichorn

Actually, most of that came from the Opposing Arguments in the Voter Guide I got this weekend. The phrasing is almost exactly the same.

hey lone voice, if you don't like california, don't come here. if you live here, you should probably try somewhere else.

i just want you to be happy, dude.

i grew up in a strictly conservative family, cyclo. most of the crap these radical right wing guys say has nothing to do with conservatism. they've simply strong armed their way into controlling the republican party for the time being.

i suspect that's going to come to an end pretty soon from a lot of what my truly conservative friends say.

true conservatism = good with money, pragmatism and a respect for civil liberties.

that doesn't mean that i disagree with your statement.

A lone voice --welcome--there are few conservatives on these threads. Do not become too strident or theLIBERALS will post attacks against you. Note Cyclops below(who,I must tell you, comes from guess what far far far far left town in California. I am sure you guessed--BERKELEY.

You are right about PETA. A few of their ideas are feasible but the "nuts" in the organization go much too far. If you really want to adopt their ideas and not just be a hypocrite then you must NEVER EVER utilize any item or food which has in any way harmed an animal. I don't know of any people who do that!

But.lone voice,let's think this through. If all of the chain of life is holy andnot to be destroyed, what about the insects? Don't they have any rights?
How many poor innocent helpless ants are destroyed when people walk on sidewalks WITHOUT LOOKING WHERE THEY ARE STEPPING?

What about our friends, the defenseless bees who are vital to our flower and fruit industry. Some of them are shamelessly executed by BUG KILLERS>

This has to stop, lone voice. That is why I am forming a sister organization to PETA to be named PETI(People for the Ethical Treatment of INSECTS.

Actually, just answer this, and then I'll leave you good people to bask in the warmth of your limited thought, non-diverse lib/progressive kingdom (oops, sexist, sorry.. queendom, um, magic land?)

You guys demand evolution be taught in science class; you also demand that creationism, or whatever else the religious right is pushing, be kept out of the schools because it is something that is not able to be proved.

Now, I agree with libs/progressives here. Science is science. Right? Keep science where it belongs.

So tell me why you guys will ignore science for an issue like 'happy' hens? Science is able to measure the health of a hen based on the egg output of said fowl. Deplorable conditions? Only for those who have been raised on the Disney Channel and believe chickens talk to each other (and us). Spend time in a rural area, talk to a farmer, and understand where your food comes from. I’ve always said libs/progressives need to expand their horizons a bit; living in such a closed circle, where everyone echoes each other and reinforces opinions is not healthy. This is a prime example.

Stay true to your lib/progressive leanings, and examine the science. Be objective. You libs/progressives seem to have the hardest time with peer pressure and what the cool kids think...

I've spent plenty of time on farms, both modern and antiquated, in my life, ALV.

I think it's wrong to keep an animal in a cage every single minute of its' life. I don't care if we have ways of keeping them healthy while doing so. You have missed the point entirely. But, it's no more than what I expect, for you are an asshole, and this is how assholes act.

Cycloptichorn

You're a child, cyclops.

Like most libs/progressives, you stick out your tongue, put your fingers in your ears, and hum loudly so you don't have to hear the truth.

I haven't missed the point. I deal in facts.

The University of California has completed a study (you libs/progressives love university studies, don't you?) showing the CA egg industry will be eliminated if Prop 2 passes. Thus, Californians will be purchasing their eggs from where?

Mexico and other states.

And how will those eggs be obtained, cyclops? From hens in cages, just like they used to in California.

So consumers will be paying more for eggs, jobs will be lost, there will be more trucks - thus more pollution - but none of this matters to short-sighted individuals like yourself:

You will feel better about yourself. And that's all that matters, isn't it?

I asked you to show me the science. You can’t, though, because science doesn’t enter into Prop. 2. Only the ‘feelings’ of what ill informed libs/progressives, animal rights wackos, and other wing-nut leftists believe hens and other farm animals are themselves ‘feeling.’

Like I said, quit watching Disney films and visit a farm. You say you’ve been there? Sorry, I don’t believe you. (And quaint designer bed and breakfasts with a garden on a half acre in the Bay Area don’t count, you yuppie scum). This is why editorial boards from the LA Times, SF Chron, etc " who have never been within sniffing distance of an actual, working farm or ranch - can support Prop 2, while those newspapers in those counties where farms actually produce food oppose it.

Healthy hens in a comfortable setting will produce eggs. As they are now. These romantic feelings of hens being able to roam free and gather into little groups where they visit is just nonsense.

But this IS how you freaks think. Don’t believe me? Look here: http://able2know.org/topic/123539-1

Grow up dude. YOU miss the point…

This is what I mean about you libs/progressives always worrying about what the cool kids think.

You hear an argument you don't agree with, and you immediately dismiss the person it is coming from, claiming they are parroting another source.

You feel better about yourself, and don't have to address the person because he is only repeating "Opposing Arguments.'

This is actually what libs/progressives seem to do; you wait to form an opinion on an issue until the cool kids on the Huffington Post or elsewhere tell you what all the cool kids are thinking, and then you adopt said opinion. That's why it's so easy to dismiss the opinion of another, isn't it?

First, I haven't seen my voter guide yet; I've obtained my info from the editorials from a number of daily newspapers who have been in support and opposition to Prop 2. I also have information from a University of California, Davis, study indicating the effects of the proposition.

But regardless of the source - and your prompt dismissal - you haven't voiced your opinion yet.

Are you waiting for Jon Stewart to have a segment on his show?

Guess who got this bill on the ballot? The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS), who, despite the name, isn't the Humane Society at all, rather, it's a Washington D.C. based PAG and the world's largest "animal rights" organization. HSUS doesn't just want to take away the cages, they want to take away the chickens. They want to abolish all farming operations that involve animals. They want to abolish hunting. They want to abolish pet ownership.

They are the biggest bunch of brain dead creeps I know of. People like this are what happens when you spend more time smoking dope at college than going to class.

Two years ago HSUS got a Prop 2 on Michigan's ballot. That was the so called "Dove Hunt" proposition. First they hired some company from Arizona to "collect" enough signatures to get it on the ballot (this was widely contested). They wrote it so that a "Yes" vote was to support the dove hunt (which we already had in place). Then they spent millions of dollars to defeat their own bill. Which is what happened. They are deft politicos, and their cause is unjust and inhuman.

So, Michigan now has no dove hunt, though we have millions of the most widely hunted game bird in America. I suspect they will go after archery (deer/turkey) next.

Screw the HSUS and anyone who associates with these eco-terrorists.

The worst thing to happen to the family farm and ranch was Walt Disney.

Not only do all these well-intentioned city people have no clue where their food comes from, now they suffer from anthropomorphism. I have actually watched a wacky lib/progressive try to hold a conversation with a hog; it would be amusing if it wasn't scary what these people are capable of.

Let me ask you a question, cjhsa: I haven't been around for a few years (I only come around during elections) but I sense a much more bitter lib/progressive here; they seem far less likely to discuss issues than in the past. I used to enjoy the give and take, but now they tend to just call someone an asshole if you disagree with them.

What happened to this place?

Yuppie scum? Go **** yourself, asshole. You have no clue what you are talking about. My grandparents and some of my extended family are farmers in TX and I've spent plenty of time helping out there. What is the preoccupation of Conservatives with making stupid assumptions about people on the internet who they don't know?

You have missed the point; you don't know the facts; you're just another Conservative asshole who thinks he knows better how to run CA than the people who live there. My guess is prop 2 will pass, the market will adjust, and we will all go on with life just fine.

Cycloptichorn

Actually, I agree with many of the so called 'social' issues dear to the lib/progressive heart; I just stay consistent in my beliefs.

Thus, government shouldn't be involved in deciding who can marry who; government shouldn't be allowed to tell a woman what she can or can't do with her body. The 'War on Drugs' is a joke, legalize 'em.

I've stated this in other threads; but go ahead, make assumptions about me...

On the other hand, I also think government should stay out of people's business beyond marriage and reproduction. Funny how libs/progressives are selective in their government intervention. I believe government is a problem that most people have to overcome in life; libs/progressives see government as a solution, for the most part.

I'm just consistent, as I said...

You agree, DTOM, that the growth of the state government in CA is a good thing, as our lib/progressive friends do? You seem quick to judge here; tell me what you believe. What are thoughts on the problems and issues we have in here in CA?

So typically lib/progressive of you.

I do know the facts, I do know the science, and all you're doing is calling me a ******* asshole. You call me an asshole twice, in two different posts, and then become offended when I refer to you as yuppie scum. Self indulgent a bit?

Like I said, how typically liberal/progressive of you. Pick up a sign and march now, I guess, since you're not getting your way. You are of THAT washed up generation, aren’t you?

You are right about one thing: it might pass, based on people like you who have no clue how food gets to their table. And then we'll all be purchasing our eggs from out of state (or Mexico), where guess what? Hens are kept in cages. You still haven’t addressed this.

You still haven't addressed my other points, cyclops. And I expect that you won't at this junction. But I'm still open - and hoping - to discussing the science of Prop 2 with you.

Show me the studies about hens being 'happy' when they are free range. Show me facts about egg production when hens are allowed to scratch or roam.

You have a strong case of anthropomorphism, as most animal rights wing nuts do. You guys mix up what's real and what's make believe, and then science goes out the window.

Like I said, just apply the same standards as libs/progressives do to evolution being taught in science class; we can agree creationism should be kept out of the schools because it is something that is not able to be proved.

Why can't you apply the same standards here?

Now, are you going to address this like an adult, or just call me an asshole again?

I'll be waiting...

Nope. Just another error you've made.



Funny, the eggs I purchase come from a farm not very far from my house, one which is cage-free. I suspect I will continue purchasing my eggs just as before. What is there to address? CA companies will either adjust to the new regulations or they won't and will close up shop. I could give a f*ck either way. There's no honor in perpetuating bad situations and acts merely to keep jobs going, in fact, there's a significant amount of dishonor in that position and I do not support it.

I don't need a study to tell me that it's wrong to keep animals in their cages all the time. And I could care less if they produce more eggs that way, when they are force-fed food all day and never walk around or do anything at all really. That's not the important issue to me. I don't care if it costs more to have my food treated humanely before I eat it. It's the right thing to do.

Prop 2 is likely to pass, over the objections of animal haters such as yourself. And don't you think that's an accurate name to call you? You could care less the conditions your food is kept in before it gets to your plate. Right?

As long as the cheap! omelettes! keep flowing, you could give a damn. Right?

Cycloptichorn

Like I've said, you don't have a clue. Like most libs/progressives in the Bay Area and SoCal, you've never been close to a farm or ranch in CA. Assumption? If you have, you wouldn't be spouting this nonsense.

You are not looking at the evidence or science involved in this issue; you are making a decision based on your feelings. You call me an animal hater, yet you, too, are making the same assumptions you accuse me of making.

I'm not depending on 'feelings' here like you and other libs/progressive are. It's not hard to find the answers to the questions involving Prop 2 - if one is willing to shake the dogma possessing them. The science is there, and it is clear.

But like you said, you don't need a study. Close your eyes and wish it's true; do this enough, and it will come true!

So, 'turn your back on science' man: how does one treat a chicken humanely? You say you don't care if costs more to do so; tell me, in your non-science and feel-good way, what this means.

It's not a complicated concept, ALV. Animals were not created to be kept in cages their entire lives, any more so than humans or any other creature on the earth. Period. We can use them for food generation while still providing a healthy environment for them. It is immaterial to me that you call this an 'emotional' argument; it is an eminently rational one.

I haven't seen you actually provide any links, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to call bullshit on your supposed 'science' argument. Provide some links to back up your position, that chickens suffer no quality of life decreases when kept in deplorable conditions.

Let me ask you: are farms and chicken farms somehow different in CA, then in TX and AR? Why would you make that distinction? Mostly to further your bullshit and no other reason.

Cycloptichorn

More proof: Those wacky libs in California...

You rang?

fair enough, alv.

first off, any assumption that i made about you was via the "wacky libs" thing. would you agree that more often than not, it is intended in a way other than good humored?

about government;

i'm a registered libertarian, have been since the seventies. at the time, i was still voting for republican presidents. after reagan, i started looking at the dems. in all these years, i've only twice really had any idea about the libertarian candidate. ed clark in '80 and harry brown in 2000. and brown only because my post company did some work on the campaign's videos.

i just remembered bob barr... see what i mean? no face time, no mailers, no email... guess libertarians don't organize very well.

anyway; the way i see myself these days probably falls more towards modified libertarian or moderate independent.

and i'll tell you why;

like you, i don't want a whole bunch of intrusion by the government. especially into people's private lives. they annoy me most of the time. it's very hard to claim that the government is super efficient.

that said; while government is a pain in the keester, there are some things that can really only be achieved by the feds and state. either a thing requires extraordinary cash or a large and wide flung work force.

an obvious example is the military. doesn't matter if we think land, sea, air,space (yep. you know there's a space command now, right?) or linking a bunch of silo rats together.

imagine trying to launch a war or repel an invasion with 50 civilian bosses and at least 50 generals; all wanting to be the guy. a mess. so, that gets directed on a national level by the feds, right?

where do they get the cash? from us, as a nation. not states, but an entire nation of individual citizens.

apply that concept to some other things that america may have now and needs some repair. also to things that america should or could have but doesn't.

* a national high speed train system. wouldn't that be helpful in lowering our dependence on foreign oil? seems like it would. amtrak cannot do that on their own. the service as declined and been ridiculed for years. so how can they do it without federal funding? they can't, the feds can.

where do they get the cash? from us, as a nation. not states, but an entire nation of individual citizens.

i don't want to belabor a whole slew of things, maybe you get my drift?

another area where there should be some national standard is in food production, imho.

with a population the size of america's, we go through massive amounts of food every day. it comes from all over the place already. next time you're in trader joe's, look at where your tomatoes are from. mine usually say mexico, already. alot of the fish i've seen comes from places like vietnam and thailand. that may have changed. ms. dtom doesn't like fish, so i rarely eat it at home.

once again, imho, state regulations may be fine, maybe they aren't. but it would be nice to know that the food in kentucky or tennessee, new york or tucson are all held to uniform standard. there are some regulatory agencies, but i keep hearing how understaffed the regulatory departments are.

because there's a constant drum beat to keep cutting taxes, cutting taxes and then cut taxes some more.

it doesn't seem logical to me. i mean, we're not talking about luxembourg here.

at what point do we go from being fiscally conservative (which i support generally, excepting the exampled kind of caveats) to just cutting our own throats?

you may be wondering how all of this fits in with something like raising food animals in a cruelty free environment.

if you want to look at it this way, i just don't think it's cool spiritually to mistreat an animal simply because it's gonna become dinner. there's really no point other than thinking small. i saw a feature the other night about a chicken ranch here in ca. you may have seen it too?

multiple chickens just stuffed as tight as can be into cages. shoulder to shoulder, trampling and crapping on each other. even from a pragmatic pov, it doesn't seem sanitary for the end product and at the least makes it nearly impossible to identify a diseased bird in a timely way. so a few get through. or the disease could spread through the whole operation. ouch. lost profits alright.

like cyclo, i grew up around farms. never lived on one, but both houses i lived in had a farm on the other side of our chain link back fence.

i did however do some work on our neighbor's farm down in henry county a couple of summers. i'll be the first to say that farm work is backbreaking on the least of days. rewarding, but financially iffy, even then. nothing like a head full of corn dust. i got pretty good at pulling, hanging, stripping and pressing tobacco, and was able to kill, skin and clean rabbits pretty easy. since i was a kid, the hog and cow slaughter went to the big guys.

i saw something in those guys, as well as the farms we lived next to that i don't see in the corporate farms that we have now. a healthy love and respect for the land and nature.

as contradictory as it seems, i didn't see those farmers mistreating their animals even though they knew that at some point the thing was going to end up as chow.

that's what i consider life in balance. (yeah, i know... break out the crystals and pyramids... )

so, between the pragmatic view of food being as disease free as possible and my belief that cruelty is just a bad thing, whether it's to animals or humans, i have no problem bending the libertarian thing a little for the common good.

i'm not stupid. i know that like cutting taxes too much, over regulation can also be the cutting of our proverbial throats. apparently not regulating enterprise gets us in a real jam, too. 9000 points down? i don't have to be an economics expert to understand that is veddy,veddy bad.

once again, i think some semblance of balance can be achieved without either bankrupting a farm operation or more or less torturing a dumb animal.

people just seem to go knee jerk instead of putting a couple of minutes into figuring it out for themselves. so the federal and state governments have to act.

sometimes it works. sometimes, not so much. don't know till ya try...

anyway, i can't detail every single belief i have here anymore than anyone else. hopefully you see where i'm coming from.

gotta roll. later.

dtom