11
   

What Happened in Washington Today

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 12:25 pm
@revel,
Those mixed messages on how different stock markets are handling this crisis is not a good indication of the world's future economy. It's going to tank alot further than now, and the recovery will be very long term. The markets around the world will eventually reflect this long term "depression," and I'm talking here about the human condition.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 12:54 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Meanwhile the Senate did pass the 'rescue' bill tonight including $150 billion in existing tax cuts that they won't be allowing to expire for now. So far the market is unimpressed.

it's mind blowing that some who wouldn't vote for a plan @ $700 billion because it was "too much money" were induced to vote for a revised bill by adding an additional 100b to bring the taxpayer's tab to $800 billion.

from what the media is saying, there's a lot of unrelated spending in it. the proverbial pork?


And here is a bit of news offered to inspire additional confidence in your government, folks. (cough)

yep. ah hack hack hack Very Happy
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 12:57 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
It is being presented that way in the media, DTOM, but it is not an increase of the $700 billion nor was the $700 billion actually a certain outlay from the national treasury. The 'extra' was simply not allowing components of the existing tax relief to expire at this time and therefore further depress the economy.

If those in the media were intelligent enough to actually explain this well to the general public--and if we didn't have politicians like Harry Reid going off half cocked feeding erroneous information to the media--this would probably be a done deal by now and we would all be getting on with our lives.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 01:15 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

It is being presented that way in the media, DTOM, but it is not an increase of the $700 billion nor was the $700 billion actually a certain outlay from the national treasury. The 'extra' was simply not allowing components of the existing tax relief to expire at this time and therefore further depress the economy.


I omnly read the the Congressional Records (besides the daily media) and might have misunderstood a lot.
Could you give me your source, please?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 01:20 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I've been posting or citing my sources right along, Walter--generally I'm posting what I'm hearing on the TV and radio or 'developing' reports on the Drudge report et al as events develop and sometimes before they have time to show up on Youtube or in print. Perhaps you could help us out by providing the condensed version of all 400+ pages of the bill in the Congressional Record if my version of the facts is in error?

And speaking of that 400+ pages of the bill, does anybody want to say that every Senator actually carefully read all those 400+ pages before casting their votes last night? Do you expect your Congressperson to carefully read it before the House bill is finalized and s/he casts his or her vote tonight or tomorrow morning?

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 01:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
Well, as said: I've read the Congressional Records. I didn't say anything about 400+ pages of the bill at all nor about Youtube.

I think, those CRs to be quite correct.

And I was refering to you above quoted post.



0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 11:34 pm
@Foxfyre,
Yesterday I posted Harry Reid's reckless remarks about an unnamed insurance company going backrupt--a fact his staff later rescinded.
Here:
http://able2know.org/topic/123241-4#post-3422420

Today the Dow's 300+ plunge was almost certain at least in in part causd by that remark:

Quote:
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Several big life insurance stocks fell sharply Thursday, dragged down by jitters about their role in the credit crisis and fears sparked by a comment from Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., Wednesday about a potential bankruptcy in the industry.

"We don't have a lot of leeway on time. One of the individuals in the caucus today talked about a major insurance company. A major insurance company -- one with a name that everyone knows that's on the verge of going bankrupt. That's what this is all about," Reid said prior to the Senate's approval of the $700 billion bailout bill.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/02/news/companies/insurance_stocks/index.htm


Can you charge an irresponsible motormouth Senator for malpractice when he costs a vital industry and its stockholders mega millions by using his position to make a stupid public remark?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 11:45 pm
@Foxfyre,
no, but the American tomato growers would like to be able to recoup the $40+ million they lost when the FDA claimed that tomatos had salmonella this summer........when it was chili peppers from Mexico that were the problem.
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080701/BUSINESS/178192014/1668

mouth running by government officials can cost busnessmen a lot of dough.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 07:50 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Thanks Parados. I'm pretty fuzzy on that end of it, but you seem to be speaking with some confidence here and I suspect you may be right.


Mark to market is the phrase used.

What is the market if not the market where the items are bought and sold? I thought it was pretty obvious.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 09:20 am
A really interesting 'real' non partisan look at all the blame game going around concerning this crises from factcheck.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/who_caused_the_economic_crisis.html


SYNRON
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 05:28 pm
@Foxfyre,
How can Harry Reid be a motor mouth? He is on the side of the angels. Barack is the savior and he will stand at his right hand, until Barack gets some black fellow to take his place.

He already has Valerie Jarrett as his majordomo. He loves Cynthia McKinney and Maxine Waters( they are bigger motormouths than Reid but they ARE black. Cummings, the Rep. from Maryland with the 95 IQ will certainly be one of Obama's major advisors and, last but not least, Obama's buddy, Rangel, will mysteriously have the IRS investigation against him--dropped.
0 Replies
 
SYNRON
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 05:34 pm
@revel,
Well. if you will allow me, God Bless you, revel. Someone who believes in Documentation and Evidence. Some may not accept your source, but I do and I note that the blame is spread out among a variety of sources at the bottom of your link. I think it is a good source but I do find ONE problem with it. Among the miscreants listed at the bottom there is no approportioning of blame. Yes, they are all guilty but who is the guiltiest? I would love to see some authoritative source approportioning the blame. Alas, in this political season, it won't happen but I am sure that in the future some good honest nonpartisan top Historians will be able to show us how the blame is apportioned.

0 Replies
 
SYNRON
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 05:35 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Do you have a link like Revel has or are you just blowing smoke as usual!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 05:41 pm
Well now that the 700+ bail out deal is a done deal and has been signed into law by the President, Nancy Pelosi has magnanimously claimed all the credit for her her own party and has announced that Henry Waxman and Barney Frank will be conducting the investigations into how we got into this mess.

How we got into this mess?

Wouldn't we be wise to consider the obvious, before we assign those in charge of ferreting out the fine details? This is about as blunt as I have ever seen Thomas Sowell get:

Quote:
Jewish World Review
Oct. 3, 2008

Do Facts Matter?

By Thomas Sowell

Abraham Lincoln said, "You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time."

Unfortunately, the future of this country, as well as the fate of the Western world, depends on how many people can be fooled on election day, just a few weeks from now.

Right now, the polls indicate that a whole lot of the people are being fooled a whole lot of the time.

The current financial bailout crisis has propelled Barack Obama back into a substantial lead over John McCain" which is astonishing in view of which man and which party has had the most to do with bringing on this crisis.

It raises the question: Do facts matter? Or is Obama's rhetoric and the media's spin enough to make facts irrelevant?

Fact Number One: It was liberal Democrats, led by Senator Christopher Dodd and Congressman Barney Frank, who for years" including the present year" denied that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were taking big risks that could lead to a financial crisis.

It was Senator Dodd, Congressman Frank and other liberal Democrats who for years refused requests from the Bush administration to set up an agency to regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

It was liberal Democrats, again led by Dodd and Frank, who for years pushed for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to go even further in promoting subprime mortgage loans, which are at the heart of today's financial crisis.

Alan Greenspan warned them four years ago. So did the Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers to the President. So did Bush's Secretary of the Treasury, five years ago.

Yet, today, what are we hearing? That it was the Bush administration "right-wing ideology" of "de-regulation" that set the stage for the financial crisis. Do facts matter?

We also hear that it is the free market that is to blame. But the facts show that it was the government that pressured financial institutions in general to lend to subprime borrowers, with such things as the Community Reinvestment Act and, later, threats of legal action by then Attorney General Janet Reno if the feds did not like the statistics on who was getting loans and who wasn't.

Is that the free market? Or do facts not matter?

Then there is the question of being against the "greed" of CEOs and for "the people." Franklin Raines made $90 million while he was head of Fannie Mae and mismanaging that institution into crisis.

Who in Congress defended Franklin Raines? Liberal Democrats, including Maxine Waters and the Congressional Black Caucus, at least one of whom referred to the "lynching" of Raines, as if it was racist to hold him to the same standard as white CEOs.

Even after he was deposed as head of Fannie Mae, Franklin Raines was consulted this year by the Obama campaign for his advice on housing!

The Washington Post criticized the McCain campaign for calling Raines an adviser to Obama, even though that fact was reported in the Washington Post itself on July 16th. The technicality and the spin here is that Raines is not officially listed as an adviser. But someone who advises is an adviser, whether or not his name appears on a letterhead.

The tie between Barack Obama and Franklin Raines is not all one-way. Obama has been the second-largest recipient of Fannie Mae's financial contributions, right after Senator Christopher Dodd.

But ties between Obama and Raines? Not if you read the mainstream media.

Facts don't matter much politically if they are not reported.

The media alone are not alone in keeping the facts from the public. Republicans, for reasons unknown, don't seem to know what it is to counter-attack. They deserve to lose.

But the country does not deserve to be put in the hands of a glib and cocky know-it-all, who has accomplished absolutely nothing beyond the advancement of his own career with rhetoric, and who has for years allied himself with a succession of people who have openly expressed their hatred of America.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell100308.php3
SYNRON
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 09:01 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Oh, I am sure that you did not misunderstand anything Walter Hinteler. I have found that Europeans, on the whole, were much more well read and informed than Americans. Look at our posts--We have people from other countries on these threads who know far far more than most. Nimh reports almost daily from Budapest even though he only gets scattered reports from "The Daily Paprika" and sometimes, the editorial Pages from "The Nation" and "Pravda".
Cycloptichorn is also a huge presence on these threads even though it has been reliably reported that the town in which he is situated has seceded from the USA.
Those Berkeley people have strong principles.

Don't be so modest, Walter Hinteler. I am sure you know that Germany has always been one of the most intellectual nations of the world.
0 Replies
 
SYNRON
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 09:09 pm
@Foxfyre,
But, Foixfyre---Are you not aware that Dr, Thomas Sowell, one of the most brilliant men in the USA is a( gasp) UncleTom? He does not have the depth and breadth of a real scholar like Cynthia McKinney or Maxine Waters. Now, those are black leaders, not Thomas Sowell.

But, Sowell is correct. But the left wing media won't pursue his comments.

Barney Frank obviously has some kind of spell over certain people in the media.

Franklin Raines.who looted FM cannot be questioned because that would be "racist". Raines is a good friend of Obama's. Don't be surprised if he shows up as Treasury Secretary.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 10:08 am
Obama's comaign has had ties (at least one perhaps more don't really matter) with those connected to Fanni Mae. McCain has had ties with those connected to Fanni Mae, in fact I doubt there are very few players in washington who has not in some way been associated and benifited from Fannie Mae and Fredie Mac. There is plenty of blame to go around equally with a combination of things gone wrong. Now is the time to honestly examine how to fix it without complicating it worse by throwing out the baby with the bath water. I don't imagine it will be an easy thing to do quickly but it won't get done at all if people from sides of asile don't stop throwing rocks living in glass houses.

Quote:
Senator John McCain’s campaign manager was paid more than $30,000 a month for five years as president of an advocacy group set up by the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to defend them against stricter regulations, current and former officials say.

Mr. McCain, the Republican candidate for president, has recently begun campaigning as a critic of the two companies and the lobbying army that helped them evade greater regulation as they began buying riskier mortgages with implicit federal backing. He and his Democratic rival, Senator Barack Obama, have donors and advisers who are tied to the companies.

But last week the McCain campaign stepped up a running battle of guilt by association when it began broadcasting commercials trying to link Mr. Obama directly to the government bailout of the mortgage giants this month by charging that he takes advice from Fannie Mae’s former chief executive, Franklin Raines, an assertion both Mr. Raines and the Obama campaign dispute.

Incensed by the advertisements, several current and former executives of the companies came forward to discuss the role that Rick Davis, Mr. McCain’s campaign manager and longtime adviser, played in helping Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac beat back regulatory challenges when he served as president of their advocacy group, the Homeownership Alliance, formed in the summer of 2000. Some who came forward were Democrats, but Republicans, speaking on the condition of anonymity, confirmed their descriptions.

“The value that he brought to the relationship was the closeness to Senator McCain and the possibility that Senator McCain was going to run for president again,” said Robert McCarson, a former spokesman for Fannie Mae, who said that while he worked there from 2000 to 2002, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac together paid Mr. Davis’s firm $35,000 a month. Mr. Davis “didn’t really do anything,” Mr. McCarson, a Democrat, said.

Mr. Davis’s role with the group has bubbled up as an issue in the campaign, but the extent of his compensation and the details of his role have not been reported previously.

Mr. McCain was never a leading critic or defender of the mortgage giants, although several former executives of the companies said Mr. Davis did draw Mr. McCain to a 2004 awards banquet that the companies’ Homeownership Alliance held in a Senate office building. The organization printed a photograph of Mr. McCain at the event in its 2004 annual report, bolstering its clout and credibility. The event honored several other elected officials, including at least two Democrats, Gov. Edward G. Rendell of Pennsylvania and Representative Artur Davis of Alabama.

In an interview Sunday night with CNBC and The New York Times, Mr. McCain noted that Mr. Davis was no longer working on behalf of the mortgage giants. He said Mr. Davis “has had nothing to do with it since, and I’ll be glad to have his record examined by anybody who wants to look at it.”

Asked about the reports of Mr. Davis’s role, a spokesman for Mr. McCain said that during the time when Mr. Davis ran the Homeownership Alliance, the senator had backed legislation to increase oversight of the mortgage companies’ accounting and executive compensation. The legislation, however, did not seek to change their anomalous structure as private companies with federal support.

The spokesman, Tucker Bounds, also noted that the Homeownership Alliance included nonprofit organizations like Habitat for Humanity and the Urban League. “It’s not controversial to promote homeownership and minority homeownership,” Mr. Bounds said. More than a half-dozen current and former executives, however, said the Homeownership Alliance was set up mainly to defend Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by promoting their role in the housing market, and the two companies paid almost the entire cost of the group’s operations.

“They were financed largely, possibly exclusively, by Fannie and Freddie,” said William R. Maloni, a Democrat who is a former head of industry relations for Fannie Mae. “We thought it would be helpful to have someone who was a broadly recognized Republican to be the face of the organization, and that person became Rick Davis.” Mr. Maloni added, “Rick, for that purpose, turned out to be quite good.” (Several executives said Mr. Davis’s compensation was not unusual for the companies’ well-connected consultants.)

The federal bailout of the two mortgage giants has become an emblem of what critics say is the outdated or inadequate regulatory system that allowed the financial system to slide into crisis this summer.

At the time that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac recruited Mr. Davis to run the Homeownership Alliance in 2000, they were under new pressure from private industry rivals and deregulation-minded Republicans who argued that the two companies’ federal sponsorship gave them an unfair advantage and put taxpayers at risk. Critics of the companies had formed their own Washington-based advocacy group, FM Watch. They were pushing for regulations that would deter the companies from expanding into new areas, including riskier and more profitable mortgages.

Mr. Davis had recently returned to his lobbying firm from running Mr. McCain’s unexpectedly strong 2000 Republican primary campaign, which elevated Mr. McCain’s profile as a legislator and Mr. Davis’s as a lobbyist.

“You can say what you want about free-market distortions, but people like the system because it gets them into houses cheap,” Mr. Davis said to Institutional Investor magazine in 2000, adding that he would run the advocacy group out of his Alexandria, Va., lobbying firm.

The organization also hired Public Strategies, a communications firm that included former Bush adviser Mark McKinnon. Mr. Davis wrote letters and gave speeches for the group. In April 2001, he sent out a press release headlined, “It’s Tax Day " Do You Know Where Your Deductions Are? For Most Americans, They’re in Your Home.”

But by the end of 2005, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were recovering from accounting problems and re-examining costs, former executives said. The companies decided the Homeownership Alliance had outlived its usefulness, and it disappeared.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/us/politics/22mccain.html?ei=5124&en=518f54057e935c1b&ex=1379736000&adxnnl=1&partner=digg&exprod=digg&adxnnlx=1222179984-MXsvfY3kqPrqyv3NbVfrPg

Quote:
But McCain's own campaign staffers are those special interests, a fact that casts doubt on both McCain's hiring judgment and his ability to pursue tough reforms of Fannie and Freddie.

Aquiles Suarez, listed as an economic adviser to the McCain campaign in a July 2007 McCain press release, was formerly the director of government and industry relations for Fannie Mae. The Senate Lobbying Database says Suarez oversaw the lending giant's $47,510,000 lobbying campaign from 2003 to 2006.

And other current McCain campaign staffers were the lobbyists receiving shares of that money. According to the Senate Lobbying Database, the lobbying firm of Charlie Black, one of McCain's top aides, made at least $820,000 working for Freddie Mac from 1999 to 2004. The McCain campaign's vice-chair Wayne Berman and its congressional liaison John Green made $1.14 million working on behalf of Fannie Mae for lobbying firm Ogilvy Government Relations. Green made an additional $180,000 from Freddie Mac. Arther B. Culvahouse Jr., the VP vetter who helped John McCain select Sarah Palin, earned $80,000 from Fannie Mae in 2003 and 2004, while working for lobbying and law firm O'Melveny & Myers LLP. In addition, Politico reports that at least 20 McCain fundraisers have lobbied for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, pocketing at least $12.3 million over the last nine years.

For years McCain campaign manager Rick Davis was head of the Homeownership Alliance, a lobbying association that included Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, real estate agents, homebuilders, and non-profits. According to Politico, the organization opposed congressional attempts at regulation of Fannie and Freddie, along the lines of what John McCain is currently proposing. In his capacity of president of the group, Davis went on record in 2003 and insisted that no further reform of the lenders was necessary, in contradiction to his current boss's sentiments. "[Fannie and Freddie] are subject to an innovative and stringent risk-based capital stress test," Davis wrote. "The toughest in the financial services industry."

At a campaign rally Wednesday morning in Fairfax, Virginia, John McCain said that the heads of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac ought to give back the millions of dollars they've earned. What about the lobbyists who helped Fannie and Freddie game the system? Maybe McCain can ask them " at the next campaign strategy meeting.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/09/9663_mccain_fannie_freddie.html


Quote:
So what evidence does the McCain campaign have for the supposed Obama-Raines connection? It is pretty flimsy, but it is not made up completely out of whole cloth. McCain spokesman Brian Rogers points to three items in the Washington Post in July and August. It turns out that the three items (including an editorial) all rely on the same single conversation, between Raines and a Washington Post business reporter, Anita Huslin, who wrote a profile of the discredited Fannie Mae boss that appeared July 16. The profile reported that Raines, who retired from Fannie Mae four years ago, had "taken calls from Barack Obama's presidential campaign seeking his advice on mortgage and housing policy matters."

Since this has now become a campaign issue, I asked Huslin to provide the exact circumstances of that passage. She said that she was chatting with Raines during the photo shoot, and asked "if he was engaged at all with the Democrats' quest for the White House. He said that he had gotten a couple of calls from the Obama campaign. I asked him about what, and he said, 'Oh, general housing, economy issues.' ('Not mortgage/foreclosure meltdown or Fannie-specific?' I asked, and he said 'no.')"

By Raines's own account, he took a couple of calls from someone on the Obama campaign, and he or she had general discussions about economic issues. I have asked both Raines and the Obama people for more details on these calls.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/19/AR2008091903604.html

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 10:18 am
@revel,
given the size of fannie and freddie, their connectivness to the federal government, and the amount of money they spread around Washington over the last years......few in Washington have no connection to them.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 10:41 am
McCain himself has not been instrumental in protecting Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from scrutiny and competent oversight. The fact remains that Chris Dodd and Barney Frank plus some other key players, all Democrats, plus the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac execs, all Democrats, turned a blind eye and kept their fingers crossed that the bubble wouldn't burst rather than do their jobs.

Nor did the foxes that they have now put in charge of guarding the hen house. . . .again.

The Republican are complicit mostly because they didn't speak up, go public, and howl to high heavens when it could have staved off the disaster.

The Democrats are almost 100% responsible for buying votes by exercising fiscal irresponsibility. They pushed the mantra that it wasn't fair that the middle class had nice homes and cars and big screen televisions and the less fortunate among their constituency did not. And that is when they started pushing for lenders to provide loans to people who had no reasonable means of repaying them. Then the gamblers/speculators moved in to take advantage of the no-requirements/low cost loans trying to make a fast buck, and they too got stuck when the bubble burst.

But economics is a stern and consistent master. You don't get to the middle class with a house and a car and a big screen television and then look for a job that will pay for that stuff. The middle class was created by people who prepare themselves to get a decent job, wake up to an alarm clock, drag themselves out of bed, go to work, save their money, and qualify for fiscally sound mortages, loans, and credit cards.

Until we get away from this sub prime mortgage stuff and start requiring people to have a 15-20% down payment for their houses, and reasonable ability to repay loans before they can get one, we will be looking for many more rescues requiring many more mega billions on down the road.

Do the Democrats understand that? I haven't seen any indication that they do yet.
0 Replies
 
SYNRON
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 10:49 am
@revel,
Revel- Don't you know who Raines is? He is a brother. They all defecate in the same pot. If you don't know that African-Americans hold the loyalty to their race and their brothers and sisters at a higher level than their loyalty to their country, you know NOTHING about Blacks.

I can prove this. Blacks have been polled again and again on certain items. Incredibly, 60 percent of them polled indicated that it was true that the GOVERNMENT was deliberately encouraging use among African Americans and 29 percent (TWENTY NINE PERCENT) deliberately created the AIDS virus in order to decimate the Black Population.

Reverend Wright( Obama's preacher( who he never heard say these things) said the same in the now famous speech that has been aired over and over.

Either Obama is a dim-wit or he is lying. He knew that these were ideas which are espoused all over the black community, but he is a uniter--Just wait and you will see far more than 12% of the important jobs(nation is 12% black) given to his cronies.

I am astonished to see so many liberals who, because their professors told them that their ancestors in 1865 were racists, will ruin our country by giving the presidency to a person who is a racist himself---a reverse racist who hates white people and needs to connect with his witchdoctor roots in Africa.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 10/05/2024 at 04:04:58