3
   

Wall Street Journal: McCains assault on Cox 'un-presidential'

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2008 05:30 pm
@slkshock7,
slkshock, How often do you make it a habit to make yourself look a fool?

How much effort do you put into it?
slkshock7
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2008 06:44 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo,
You're right on how CQ calculates but there's nothing wrong with my analysis...according to your very own favorite polling website...pollster.com

pollster.com wrote:
The figures being used by Democrats are presidential support scores computed by CQ Weekly, a leading weekly magazine monitoring events in Washington. The score is based entirely on recorded roll-call votes in Congress. CQ identifies those votes where the president has taken a clear stand and then records whether a senator or representative voted in the president's preferred direction. The votes need not be key on the president's agenda or be anything the president encouraged Congress to do--they are simply cases where CQ has determined a clear presidential position. In the Senate, the president's nominations, which are usually noncontroversial, are a sizable portion of the votes used by CQ to compile its support score. In 2007, nominations were 30% of the votes used by CQ to calculate presidential support in the Senate.

McCain's presidential support level was 95% in 2007, but this is somewhat misleading. Because he was running for president, McCain was present for only 38 of the 97 roll calls CQ used to calculate the presidential support score. There were 442 roll-call votes in total in the Senate in 2007. Looking at only those votes for which both McCain and Obama were present that year--33 votes--McCain's support score was 94% while Obama's was 48%. CQ also noted in a recent post that McCain, Obama, and Biden voted on less than half the presidential support votes from January through August 2008.

Using the same figures the Obama campaign has used to tie John McCain to President Bush, Biden was a 77% supporter of President Bush's positions in 2002, 70% in 2004, and over a 50% supporter of Bush in 4 of the president's 7 full years in office. Up through the August 2008 congressional recess, Biden had supported Bush's positions 52% of the time since January 2001. Obama himself supported the president's positions just under 50% in 2006 and 40% since he joined the Senate in January 2005.


Would be more telling and I'd be much more inclined to your position if we knew the 38 specific issues that McCain voted with Bush. If many were nominations as pollster implies, then much of the wind comes out of the sails of this Democratic talking point. Since we don't know that, then a much more telling statistic is how often McCain did not vote with Bush.
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2008 06:47 pm
@cicerone imposter,
CI,
For a while there, based on a number of your well-reasoned and articulated posts, I thought you had matured beyond petty childish insults. I guess I was wrong.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  4  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 08:40 pm
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

Would be more telling and I'd be much more inclined to your position if we knew the 38 specific issues that McCain voted with Bush. If many were nominations as pollster implies, then much of the wind comes out of the sails of this Democratic talking point.

Um - the 38 number in your quote is about the 2007 votes alone. The "McCain voted with Bush 90% of the time" claim, on the other hand, is based on McCain's votes throughout the years of Bush's presidency, all the way back to 2001. That's a lot more than just 38 votes we're talking about.

Across those seven years, McCain voted with Bush 90% of the time, while Obama, as your quote notes, voted with him just 40% of the time he was in the Senate, and Biden did so 52% of the time. That's a stark difference. How does your quote "take the wind out of the sails" of this?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 08:56 pm
@nimh,
During the last congress, McCain voted with Bush 95% of the time. I'd sure like to see the numbers on Obama and Biden.
Woiyo9
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 07:43 am
@cicerone imposter,
Explain that comment. We hear it all the time.

Since a President does not actually vote on legislation, exactly what does that statement mean?
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 09:36 am
@nimh,
http://able2know.org/topic/122904-1
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 09:45 am
@nimh,
Of course, there's a stark difference, they're in different parties. I imagine if we looked at Biden's "presidential support" figures under the Jimmy Carter administration, it too would be in the 90% range, while McCain's would be in the 40% range. Shall we then make the argument that this means that Obama/Biden will be a Carter second term? Of course not...it's a silly argument.

I agree that the 38 vote number is for 2007 only. But in light of McCain's position and strong stake on the progress of the war, I submit it is safe to assume several of those 38 votes were on war issues while others were non-controversial nominations.

My point stands. It is far more telling to judge a senator's appetite for bipartisanship and reform, by assessing how often he stands against his own party line. Obama has rarely, if ever, done so while McCain has done so his whole career.

Even CQ admits that McCain is not your average senator...

CQ wrote:
John McCain has had an uneven record of support for conservative priorities in his 21 years in the Senate. In many years, he voted the way the American Conservative Union and the Chamber of Commerce wanted him to less than three-quarters of the time. During the Bush administration, he has backed the causes of organized labor and the liberal Americans for Democratic action more than a quarter of the time in three separate years.

In nine of the past 11 years, he joined fellow Republicans in mostly party-line votes less often than the Senate GOP average. And in eight years he’s voted either against President Bush’s wishes, or for President Bill Clinton’s priorities, more often than most in his caucus.

It is true that last year both his unity and presidential support scores shot up as he began his quest for the White House. But he missed more than half the Senate roll call votes in 2007 " and many of the ones he attended were about the war and immigration, both issues on which he shared Bush’s views.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 10:10 am
@slkshock7,
That's a direct contradiction of how McCain voted during Bush's tenure; that's what is important today, not his 26 years in congress. He voted 95% with Bush during the "last" congress. That speaks volumes that you won't year.
slkshock7
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 11:00 am
@cicerone imposter,
Bull! Bush is a Republican....so is McCain. What is so remarkable that of almost 1000 votes (and about 100 that were evaluated by CQ) taken in the last Congress, McCain and Bush would agree on 38? As I said before, I expect a large number of those shared votes were war and immigration issues, where both McCain and Bush shared views. Many more were non-controversial nominations.

Democrats are simply grasping at straws trying to divert attention from the fact that McCain is the most bipartisan Senator out there (with possible exception of Lieberman). They're pushing this because they know that if bipartisanship is really measured, then their candidate will be proven to be an old school, out-of-the-main-stream liberal and unmistakeably highly partisan politician.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 11:06 am
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

Bull! Bush is a Republican....so is McCain. What is so remarkable that of almost 1000 votes (and about 100 that were evaluated by CQ) taken in the last Congress, McCain and Bush would agree on 38? As I said before, I expect a large number of those shared votes were war and immigration issues, where both McCain and Bush shared views. Many more were non-controversial nominations.

Democrats are simply grasping at straws trying to divert attention from the fact that McCain is the most bipartisan Senator out there (with possible exception of Lieberman). They're pushing this because they know that if bipartisanship is really measured, then their candidate will be proven to be an old school, out-of-the-main-stream liberal and unmistakeably highly partisan politician.


He was only bi-partisan when it helped his electoral chances. Once it became clear that he wouldn't win the presidency by being bi-partisan, he abandoned that position, and toed the republican party line on EVERY ISSUE. He abandoned his strong objections to tax cuts, torture, and immigration reform.

What McCain really is, is pro-McCain, more than any other factor possible.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 11:17 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, But that's politics! Even Bill Clinton did the same thing to win.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 11:20 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Cyclo, But that's politics! Even Bill Clinton did the same thing to win.


Sure, I agree. But that's not the way McCain has presented himself; there's an inconsistency between the 'myth' that Republicans have bought into, and his actual record.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 11:24 am
@Cycloptichorn,
That's seems to be obvious to only those who do not support McCain-Palin today.
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  3  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 11:41 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo,
Your conclusion just doesn't fit McCain's history. The CQ article I quoted earlier clearly demonstrates that throughout his career, McCain has voted differently than the stated Republican Party line more often than the usual Senator ( I daresay more often than any other Senator of either party).

This is not "myth"....and is entirely consistent with his actual record, despite what his current campaign rhetoric might be. As CI said, that apparent change in rhetoric is "just politics". Obama has done the same since he wrapped up the nomination, taking a sharp turn to center from his rhetoric during the primaries.
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 11:51 am
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

Cyclo,
Your conclusion just doesn't fit McCain's history. The CQ article I quoted earlier clearly demonstrates that throughout his career, McCain has voted differently than the stated Republican Party line more often than the usual Senator ( I daresay more often than any other Senator of either party).

But you are not catching his salient point: That McCain is history. The McCain of today is pushing the exact same policies that Bush supports. Once he rejected tax cuts during war time, but not anymore. Once he favored reasonable immigration reform, but now it's just "build a fence". McCain has either (a) completely come to see Bush's policies as the best for the country or (b) is lying through his teeth. In either case, I can't vote for him. He's not the guy I voted for in the 2000 primaries.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 11:57 am
@slkshock7,
Engineer gets it right on the first try; you mis-understood what is being discussed here.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 12:13 pm
Ran across this link after posting...

Quote:
Richard Cizik is one of the country’s most powerful and outspoken Christian evangelical leaders. He happens to be a Republican, and he has known the GOP’s presidential nominee for many years. “I thought John McCain was a principled person,” Cizik says. “But John McCain has backed off, not just on climate change but on torture and a sensible tax policy " in other words, he’s not the John McCain of 2000. … He seems to be waffling on issue after issue.

It’s not illogical for someone to conclude that John McCain is going to be more like George Bush than John McCain is going to be like John McCain in 2000.”

Characterizing the GOP’s presidential nominee as an unprincipled waffler is strong stuff from the man who oversees governmental affairs and is the chief lobbyist of the 30-million-member Washington, D.C.-based National Association of Evangelicals. But Cizik " named this year by TIME magazine one of the world’s 100 most influential people " is no stranger to controversies that come from strong convictions...
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 12:27 pm
@engineer,
Engineer,
Maybe I'm jaded but I'm also realistic. McCain will do and say what he feels he must to get elected, as will Obama. Bush II was no different, nor was Kerry, Gore, Clinton, Bush I, or any other presidential candidate for the past 200 years or so.

Under the theory that a tiger can't change his stripes, I 'd thus give more credence to McCain's past history then his current rhetoric. As a social conservative, McCain's past history scares me far more than his current rhetoric. But this circles me back to the position I stated before....that I'm more inclined to accept the risk that McCain presents to a few of my socially conservative values vice the certain danger that Obama presents to all of them.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 03:02 pm
@slkshock7,
Even after McCain voted 95% with Bush during the last congress?
 

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