14
   

"In the 21st century, nations don't invade other nations"

 
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 01:29 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Not pushing NATO east to encircle Russia with "allies" we won't defend. Georgia was told in no uncertain terms that they wouldn't be supported if they attacked. They did anyway and whether or not they were a NATO member the rest of NATO would have done the same.

Not supporting being hypocritical about what nations should get to delcare themselves independent. Kosovo yes but South Ossetia no? Makes no sense and is too late. Unilaterally recognizing Kosovo gives the west nothing to stand on to reject the unilateral recognition of South Ossetia.

The US lacks the ability to do anything about it now and should stop trying to project power at Russia that it can't back up. Don't march east into their backyard if you lack the military and economic power to support your "ally" in their skirmishes. Don't make "friends" who ignore your wishes and act against your interests to start wars that they expect you to bail them out of.

And more simply: stop trying to create the "New American Century". That misguided doctrine of military expansionism is a dangerous one that the US can't afford to gamble on.
Ramafuchs
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 01:30 pm
@rabel22,
our military power
are you a pround person who wish to approve your country's Military power?
Why the hell you as a decent, rational human use the parochial barbaric word Our Militay power.?
my English is not commensurate with that of yours.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:03 pm
McCain did say that... and although it was pathetic and scary...it's also hilarious...
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:14 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Surely there can be a middle ground between "we unconditionally got your back" and "sorry, young budding democracy, you're on your own." While it is true projecting more power than we are ultimately willing to use is dangerous; so too is signaling to Putin that he can do as he pleases with regard to the former Soviet Union.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:29 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
"sorry, young budding democracy, you're on your own."


Yeah right, Bill. You are such a dupe. The US doesn't give a rat's ass about "budding democracies". It only seeks a measure of control in order to feed its own greed.

"The United States of America does not have friends; it has interests". John Foster Dulles
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:31 pm
@McTag,
As I remember, South Ossetia is part of Georgia, not a foreign country.
So, if Georgia attacked, it was an internal matter, a civil war.
Russia used it as a pretext to invade a foreign country.
That places the blame entirely on Russia, not Georgia.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:33 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Nobody is advocating that we signal to Putin "that he can do as he pleases with regard to the former Soviet Union".

But if you aren't in a position to do anything don't make empty threats. The US is not in a position to do anything about it right now. So it doesn't matter what signal you want to send if it can and will be completely ignored with impunity.

The US warned Russia not to recognize the independence of the breakaway regions of Georgia. Russia promptly recognized their independence within 24 hours.

The US warned Russia that it may face economic sanctions. Russia banned some US poultry imports right back before the sanctions could even be formulated.

Dick Cheney blusters that Russia shouldn't go "unpunished". That's good and nice but there nobody in a position to "punish" Russia.

Quote:
"I just don't see that the West in general or the United States in particular has any cards left to engage Russia in some strategic game," says Igor Lukes, a professor specializing in contemporary Russian and Eastern European affairs at Boston University. "Cheney may have a well-deserved reputation for being hawkish, but the US is not going to confront Russia to maintain the territorial integrity of Georgia, and the Russians know it."

As for the prospects for sanctions from the EU, Mr. Lukes says the threats "ring hollow." Russia furnishes the EU with about half of its energy supplies " about 45 percent of Germany's energy supply alone, he notes. "The Europeans won't do anything to encourage a confrontation with Russia. They simply can't afford to do it," he says.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0829/p02s01-usfp.html


So what kind of punishment did you have in mind? More symbolic threats like the G8 "condemning the action of our fellow G8 member"?
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:38 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
Russia used it as a pretext to invade a foreign country.


How would you compare that to the pretext/lies used to invade Iraq?
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:40 pm
@mysteryman,
Hogwash, you support the US when it does the exact same thing. Kosovo is an internal matter in a foreign country by your standards and we just recognized their independence unilaterally. Russia unilaterally recognizes the independence of South Ossetia in much the same way and what's good for the goose should be good for the gander. If you support the US meddling in the internal affairs of others you have no basis to blame Russia for doing the same.
mysteryman
 
  0  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:43 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Kicking them out of the G8.
An economic embargo.
Freezing any and all Russian accounts in the US.
Cutting diplomatic relations.

Those are just a few things that we can do.
And if that doesnt work, we provide military and economic aid to Georgia.
If Russia sees that as an "act of war", then they can respond.
But if they do, they will be seen as the agressor and NATO will have every right and legal obligation to respond in kind.


mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:47 pm
@Robert Gentel,
And we shouldnt have.
We should not have attacked Kosovo, nor should we have provided any aid to them.

Now tell me, when you say..."Russia unilaterally recognizes the independence of South Ossetia in much the same way and what's good for the goose should be good for the gander", are you suggesting that we started a war so Kosovo could become independent?
Are you suggesting that the US invaded Serbia in support of Kosovo independence?
Are you suggesting that the US started that war?

We should not have recognized Kosovo, nor should we recognize the independence of South Ossetia, at least not till the govt of Georgia does.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:47 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Whoa, way way too much honesty here.

This type of cognitive dissonance is par for the course not only for supporters like MM but this tripe regularly issues from the mouths of politicians at the highest levels of government.

There was another thread recently, Ogionik's I believe, that also dealt honeslty with this most incredible hypocrisy.

I applaud you both.
mysteryman
 
  3  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:50 pm
@JTT,
You mean like the pretext/lies used to invade Vietnam, or South Korea, or any of the multitude of other countries the US has invaded over the years, including those invaded when a dem was president?

If you are going to call what we did in Iraq an act based on lies, then you need to look at ALL of the wars this country has fought, not just those led by a repub president.
Ramafuchs
 
  0  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:50 pm
@mysteryman,
Any country whether
barbaric india
or banal brazil
or intellectual Israel
or soup sipping super power usa is qulified to dehumanize the ignorance of the critical individuals.
Am i showing my rational views?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:51 pm
@Robert Gentel,
BTW, wasnt it Bill Clinton that ordered the USAF to start bombing?
Why didnt you complain then?
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:52 pm
@mysteryman,
Uh, yeah - I think the US has been lying and using thin pretexts to get into war for a long time now. Even under Dem presidents. How can you think any different?

Cycloptichorn
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:54 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Kicking them out of the G8.


A pointless symbolic gesture.

Quote:
An economic embargo.


Not happening. Europe would suffer more than they would.

Quote:
Freezing any and all Russian accounts in the US.


This is just silly nonsense and would be illegal.

Quote:
Cutting diplomatic relations.


That wouldn't hurt Russia, that would just leave the US no option to talk to them without going back on the empty threat.

Quote:
Those are just a few things that we can do.


No, those are fantastic and not viable.

Quote:
And if that doesnt work, we provide military and economic aid to Georgia.


Why? There's no amount of military and economic aid that the US can provide that would make a difference.

Quote:

If Russia sees that as an "act of war", then they can respond.
But if they do, they will be seen as the agressor and NATO will have every right and legal obligation to respond in kind.


Now let's go back to reality:

Russia is not dumb enough to give the world motivation to engage them, they'll stay within this spot they are in where the world is simply not willing to engage them and they will do so with impunity.

There is no nation in the world willing to engage Russia right now, so what's your point? Provoke them into a confrontation that the world isn't willing to be part of? The US will not go to war with Russia over this kind of thing. Pretending that the US has the will and the power to do this is absurd fantasy.
mysteryman
 
  0  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:54 pm
@JTT,
So dems are just as guilty of "this tripe" also?
That would include both Obama AND Joe Biden, wouldnt it?
After all they are also "politicians at the highest levels of government".

And since I'm not a member of the repub party and dont owe my allegiance to them, why does it surprise you that I can be honest?
What I wanna know is when you are going to start criticizing those on the left for not being honest.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:55 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I dont think different, but you are the only member of the left willing to admit it.
That is somewhat refreshing.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:59 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

Kicking them out of the G8.


A pointless symbolic gesture.


Besides that - it's very unlikely that Berlusconi (Italy currently holding the presidency) will kick his friend Putin in the as*.
0 Replies
 
 

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