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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2018 09:47 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Given that a Billion years had passed before multicelled organisms with bilateral or radial symmetry developed, I guess Id cut your guy some slack, cmon, a BILLION years??? I bet your design guy (who knew he wasnt being watched and critiqued by guys like you), just wanted to **** off a while . HAve a coupla brews, do some doobs, listen to some...Dead


Like Pope Francis said,"Who am I to judge?" But, I bet we could find the answer to that if we really asked and then made an attempt to seek for the answer scientifically. More than likely there were some environmental changes that needed to occur before large biological systems could survive.

When I turn on the irrigation system I don't call the fire department so I can get the lawn watered faster. I could though. I have the capability. But why do it?
Why not just let the system run?
Life is a progression of experiences isn't it?
I sure wouldn't want to skip any years of my life.
Would you?
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2018 09:55 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
No, we all certainly do not agree with that hilariously inept attempt to bring your imaginary friend into the discussion.
The information in The DNA and as is pointed out by cicerone daily, Natural selection manages that information.

for·tu·i·tous
fôrˈto͞oədəs/Submit
adjective
happening by accident or chance rather than design.
"the similarity between the paintings may not be simply fortuitous"
synonyms: chance, adventitious, unexpected, unanticipated, unpredictable, unforeseen, unlooked-for, serendipitous, casual, incidental, coincidental, random, accidental, inadvertent, unintentional, unintended, unplanned, unpremeditated
"a fortuitous resemblance"
informal
happening by a lucky chance; fortunate.
"from a cash standpoint, the company's timing is fortuitous"
synonyms: lucky, fluky, fortunate, providential, advantageous, timely, opportune, serendipitous, heaven-sent
"the Red Wings were saved by a fortuitous rebound"

It is fortuitous if I win the lottery. It is fortuitous if I win it three times in a row. If everybody in my family wins it three times in a row, every year, on their birthday, you can call it fortuitous.

Would you? Don't lie when you answer.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2018 09:58 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
yeh, Eldredge andGould missed the fact that thir"gap in the fossil record was because the stratigraphy of the devonian sediments from which they sampled and shoed a "rapid xplosion " of evolution after a long oriod of vry slow change, was, in fact bcause the first layer of sediments with earlier fossils was layed down . The succeeding layers either nver got layed down or were eroded as fast as they were layed down, so the next layers to be seen were much later ediments with evolved brachiopods (they used brachiopods because they are all over in the devonian)

Some grad student from SUNY (I believe) did his MS thesis on correcting the topic .

Much of he "Cambrian explosion may be missing sediments because there are some anomalous areas of dates that dont jibe.


So the best explanation to explain the paradigm shifts and the gaps in the fossil record was easily shot down?

What else do they have?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2018 10:49 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
Eye sight is a light and focusing system
And the fossil record and DNA of all organisms show eyesights bauplan supported by several dozen means of occurence. Scallops eye is waay differentnthan a planaria, a tartegrade, a squid, an insect or a primate.

Several of the crystal based eyes take but one or two Nucleotides to control the polymorph. So the "All systems change hypothesis" is a bit too optimistic . You should revisit Darwins "...Origins" to see what he had to say about evolution of the eye system through time. Its very interesting wrt your belief system.
As I said, the entire change from wing to flipper to hand is controlled via a limited set of genes in one chromosome.Genes for wings like those on an ostrich or penguins, kiwis, cassowaries and many galiforms (chickens). We know these are VESTIGIAL wings that evolved from flying birds. This we get from the fossil record ND DNA from living clades. Vestigial due to repurposing due to environmental adaptation. That takes waaaay less fudging than would ID "Informational response via the algorithm in charge". We can understand vestigial "functions" of evolved stubby wings. Flight has a number of costs to the organism, such as weight control and surface area. These vestiges re responses that re defined by changes in somatic cells.

There would be no problem talking about anything in biology as long as there IS SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE and not religiouus clabber. tuff Ive talked about and just flew over yer head includes vestiges, atavisms, gene expression, convergent evolution, can all be seen as responses based on the bonding and availablity of whatever RNA was available in the neighborhood. We really only have to worry about 3 different and unique bonding types for the ACTG andU (remember , their bonding partners are fixed , not random)

The problem with you is that your seemingly "testing all our waters " while spending 30% of your time justifying a religious worldview and then, with your word salad science your seemingly fishing for scientistic argument, and most of us aint buyin it. Im sure Leadfoot is on your side and maybe even gunga (But hes got his own creed thats only arguing via phenomena as evidence and trying to INVALIDATE C14 or argue for co -existence of humans and dinosaurs , and his incredible age or the earth).

Your evidence , IMHO is nonexistent and what you say is often incorrect ,(youtry the waters of credulity to see if we flinch)

For example, I think you mean Industrial melanism of peppered moths (not finches). Thats not really demo'ing volution. Its demonstrating selection by predators based upon an allele for wing color. Gunga came on discussing that and weve told him several times ( natural selection of the variability in the spcies aint evolution, its just an example of selection by ppredation). Jut remember, finches were Darwin species (Of which he didnt even know that they were finches till he was told that all his species were finches from one island chain).

Quote:
You have a good understanding of how the program works
Thanks, I think. I think that you need to do a lot more to understand the chemistry of linkages and organic bonds and how the , if I can agree to anything that even remotely gives us an idea that something is an "Algorithm", it would be the fact that RNa unzips the Dna an variation via random folding, mutation, nucleotide repetition all define the genotypes "variability". There does not seem to be any systematics involved . (Or so the evidence seems to most non worldview geneticists)


Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 04:54 am
@brianjakub,
You've got a gall to enjoin anyone not to lie when they answer. Hypocrisy, thy name is BJ.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 04:55 am
@brianjakub,
Natural selection does not manage anything. It is not a conscious agent, everything that happens as a result of natural selection is fortuitous.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 05:57 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Several of the crystal based eyes take but one or two Nucleotides to control the polymorph. So the "All systems change hypothesis" is a bit too optimistic . You should revisit Darwins "...Origins" to see what he had to say about evolution of the eye system through time. Its very interesting wrt your belief system.
Eye COLOR, for a point, in non crystalline primate eyes is a function of polygenic inheritance where the"dominance recessive" options take place governed by 6 or so genes (only in humans I believe)
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 10:02 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
I see you tried to dodge Occam's Razor by simply proclaiming the existence of an intelligence, as though something like that is the simplest thing there could possibly be. Nice try.

Do you notice how you are trying to have it both ways here? You speak of an intelligence as something so incredibly complex that it could never fit the Occam's Razor answer. But at the same time you maintain that intelligence arose right here by shear chance and natural causes.

Is this the evolutionist version of irreducible complexity? : )

Quote:
And by the way, the "intelligence" you describe, existing before matter and time, doesn't sound much like the traditional Christian God.

Where on earth did you get your ideas about the Christian God? That is how almost all Christians would describe him.

Even science says time did not exist before the B.B. so if God was behind it, science would have to say the same, if you follow the logic.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 10:47 am
@Leadfoot,
There is no "intelligence," only nature.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 11:40 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
There is no "intelligence," only nature.
Why isn't Sentana questioning your authority to say that.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 12:31 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Several of the crystal based eyes take but one or two Nucleotides to control the polymorph. So the "All systems change hypothesis" is a bit too optimistic . You should revisit Darwins "...Origins" to see what he had to say about evolution of the eye system through time. Its very interesting wrt your belief system.


The part of the theory that is in question is, "Can a system that came into existence from a random sources of information be complex enough to manage to new randomly produced information coming into the system to lead to the vast complexity we have.

Darwin did not understand the system well enough (biochemistry and DNA) nor complex information management (information technology) to comment beyond wild speculation from an education level that, today would probably be considered middle to high school level.

Quote:
As I said, the entire change from wing to flipper to hand is controlled via a limited set of genes in one chromosome.Genes for wings like those on an ostrich or penguins, kiwis, cassowaries and many galiforms (chickens). We know these are VESTIGIAL wings that evolved from flying birds. This we get from the fossil record ND DNA from living clades. Vestigial due to repurposing due to environmental adaptation. That takes waaaay less fudging than would ID "Informational response via the algorithm in charge". We can understand vestigial "functions" of evolved stubby wings. Flight has a number of costs to the organism, such as weight control and surface area. These vestiges re responses that re defined by changes in somatic cells.
So lets replicate it with a computer program that a computer wrote that a monkey built.

We can't even replicate the informationin DNA accurately enough to even begin to replicate management. Replicating the system goes along way to proving what it is capable of. There would be no problem talking about anything in biology as long as there IS SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE and not speculative clabber based on speculation from a purely naturalistic point of view. (did I hear something like that somewhere else?)

Quote:
We really only have to worry about 3 different and unique bonding types for the ACTG andU (remember , their bonding partners are fixed , not random)


Then lets replicate it in a computer program. With only three unique bonding types it can't be much harder to write than a simple video game program.

But the new information comes from random sources that do not care about sequence or location.

Quote:
The problem with you is that your seemingly "testing all our waters " while spending 30% of your time justifying a religious worldview and then, with your word salad science your seemingly fishing for scientistic argument, and most of us aint buyin it.
That is just good science and logical thinking. All information should be looked at naturally, as it pertains to reality, while considering what it does and what it is capable of doing. That is science according to naturalism, naive realism, and subjective idealism. Subjective idealism is peer review not religion. Peers should be able to consider ID.

If you want to bring religion in then Objective Idealism would have to used also. I am not asking for that. Then you would be judging the character of the intelligence. I don't know if science should go there.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 01:38 pm
@brianjakub,
Computer program(ming) has nothing to do with teaching of evolution.
Programming codes may go through further development, but it's only coding for computers. It's programmed by humans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 02:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
There is no "intelligence," only nature.


You're tempting me into an outburst of passive aggressive snark there CI.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 02:21 pm
@Leadfoot,
Go ahead; be my guest.

https://www.livescience.com/474-controversy-evolution-works.html
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 02:39 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
CI Quote:
There is no "intelligence," only nature.

Quote:
Brian answered:
Why isn't Sentana questioning your authority to say that.

Damn, that just invites so many snide remarks. But I’m trying to be mellow this week. Must be the Colorado weed.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 02:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Go ahead; be my guest.

OK, but only cause you insist...

Are you the evidence of that last assertion?
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 02:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,


Do you really want to discuss it?

Here's a snippet from your link:
Quote:
The theory is sometimes described as "survival of the fittest," but that can be misleading, Pobiner said. Here, "fitness" refers not to an organism's strength or athletic ability, but rather the ability to survive and reproduce.
If you take this as literally true, something like cancer, a virus or a mineral eating slime mold ought to be the dominate life here. Why isn’t it?
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 03:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Oh, here’s another brilliant tip for lonely hearts from the world of evolution in your link:
Quote:
For example, a study on human evolution on 1,900 students, published online in the journal Personality and Individual Differences in October 2017, found that many people may have trouble finding a mate because of rapidly changing social technological advances that are evolving faster than humans. "Nearly 1 in 2 individuals faces considerable difficulties in the domain of mating," said lead study author Menelaos Apostolou, an associate professor of social sciences at the University of Nicosia in Cyprus. "In most cases, these difficulties are not due to something wrong or broken, but due to people living in an environment which is very different from the environment they evolved to function in." [If You Suck at Dating, It's Not You — It's Evolution]

That Evolution does explain everything!
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 03:14 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
... many people may have trouble finding a mate because of rapidly changing social technological advances that are evolving faster than humans

Tech advances have also helped people meet to become friends and/or to get married. I have met people on the internet, and have made friends in Moscow (Russia), NYC, Alameda, San Diego, Austin, London, Germany, Manchester (England), and Mexico City. I have also met most of them in person - even in Moscow.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2018 04:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That’s all true, I met my sweetie on-line too.

My point was that these so called scientists try to stretch evolution into an explaination for everything, even people's dating problems. So if they are bull shitting you on that, you should wonder, what else are they lying about?
 

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