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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 01:42 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
You have NO evidence about DNA in the fossil record. Or were you not aware of that fact??? You make up **** with so much ease that you ought to sell used Cars on Craig's list
Can we assume that if a fossil shows that an alligator lived 10,000,000 years ago that alligator had DNA arranged in a code that is very similar to a current day alligator?

Are there patterns we can learn from living DNA that we can determine by using naive realism.?

This would be similar to reverse engineering and is done successfully all the time.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 01:48 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

Quote:
If it works for micro it works for macro. There is no division between the two. It's all the same process. The fossil record shows it that way and genetic analysis confirms.
Macro evolution is a paradigm shift which introduces completely different ways of arranging the information which results in completely different purposes for the organism and the systems it is consisted of.

No it's not. Where did you get that idea?
brianjakub wrote:

That amount of new information that changes cannot be done from random introduction of new information for a paradigm shift like flight without extinction occurring from the bad mutations that must be occurring at the same time. Plus, there is the natural lack of competitiveness that occurs to an animal as the animal goes through the morphological changes needed for flight but is still unable to fly thus also leading to extinction. Those two points were not factored into any mathematical analysis of this process being derived from random introduction of new information.

You just made up a bunch of stuff without the tiniest shred of evidence. Nice work.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 01:59 pm
@rosborne979,
remember perfessr Irwin Corey?? He could make up stuff that aaaallllmost sounded like it made sense.
BJ needs some mental floss.


"You miss 100% of the shots you never take"--(Wayn Gretzky said that bit of nonsense but BJ beatshim to the paint."
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 02:06 pm
@rosborne979,
It looks like bj has a DhP. Dumb hombre Person.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 02:25 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
Macro evolution is a paradigm shift which introduces completely different ways of arranging the information
First off, its usually NEVER a paradigm shift (I assume youre using the Kuhnian definition since your earlier stuff has used Kuhn critiques of Kqrl Popper. His "paradigm shifts " ALWAYS assume something better is the replacement. In evolution that is untrue. We have a large percentage of micro phenotypic changes lead to macro changes that ARE NOT better. macro- Adaptation macroevolution merely confer successful breeding not a damn thing more.

Im sure youre going to try to do some word easeling to come up with "Well silly, thats really what I was talking about". You are getting found out as our own prfesser Corey


Quote:
new information that changes cannot be done from random introduction of new information for a paradigm shift like flight without extinction occurring from the bad mutations that must be occurring at the same time.
All this you seem to know how? what about lichens, how-bout Carboniferous beetles with non flying wingsets.

Quote:
Plus, there is the natural lack of competitiveness that occurs to an animal as the animal goes through the morphological changes needed for flight but is still unable to fly thus also leading to extinction.
You seem to fall back onto one of the miisunderstandings about evolution. Changes may occur to any indivduals offspring that make it more successfully fecund but its theoverall population that we say is evolving. hat happens to an individual is like a single nail in a house.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 02:25 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
S far as something from nothing how bout a simpl equation like
E=mc^2 , is it a reversable equation?? and if not, why not??


E=mc^2 is not reversible. For instance if you turn matter into energy bu fission the matter is lost forever because matter is "energy" or "space" in order, and man is not capable of putting that order back.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 02:33 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
Can we assume that if a fossil shows that an alligator lived 10,000,000 years ago that alligator had DNA arranged in a code that is very similar to a current day alligator?
Now you want to back off from your silly statement that implies that you can read Paleozoic DNA. Simply using ANYTHING about th genome from animals for which you cannot obarve the genome is another thing that science doesnt do. We see that "similarity" doesnt cut the bread. e must know the nucleotides involved , qhere are they involved, and what about the chromosomal structure.
No matter what you say, e have no idea what T-rex DNA looks like, an there are no ways to say for certain what a chicken carried down from a T rex or a utahraptor unless we visit the chickens genome and turn em off and on.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 02:37 pm
@brianjakub,
in planck time it has all happened before.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 03:06 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:

So we need to quit making up rules when interpreting scientific information that eliminates from the discussion philosophical points of view (naive realism and subjective idealism) that have been very successful in similar interpretations of information technology when naturalism has proven by its "nature" and, "track record of failure", to be wholly inadequate to suffice as the sole philosophical interpretation of the information and its origins as we discuss them
I think you are more guilty of false constructs than people youclaim operate from a point of"making up rules". Your claims are more used for face-saving than real learning. You seem to equate large globs of misunderstanding for sounding profound (I am again giving you **** because you are always asking the terminal question "Its completely observable" when its rally not.
Equating doable "reverse engineering" with reconstructing life separated by many millions of generations is not in our quiver because we dont know the genomic equivalencis of what we need to mess with and we are only guessing , despite what Dr Horner says. Id be glad to see what we can accomplish with CRSPR-cas9 tech. We can reanimate a columbian mammoth because we can see the DNA and recreate it in the lab. As far as a dino chicken, e hve to recreate the DNA and it may or may not be correct even of we get a chicken with teeth nd fethers because there were probably several hundred ways that real life happened
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 03:14 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
in Planck time it a happened before.


What happened and how?
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 04:52 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
brianjakub wrote:

Quote:
If it works for micro it works for macro. There is no division between the two. It's all the same process. The fossil record shows it that way and genetic analysis confirms.
Macro evolution is a paradigm shift which introduces completely different ways of arranging the information which results in completely different purposes for the organism and the systems it is consisted of.

No it's not. Where did you get that idea?


From the fossil record with its huge "yet to be filled but we know they will be (not)" gaps and by studying information technology. Gaps with huge additions of information from one side of the gap to the other can be interpreted as a sudden paradigm shift with intelligent production of new information to facilitate the jump across the gap.

Like I said earlier we have archaeological evidence of human intelligence doing that all the time in the past. Why not with evolution when nothing else seems to be working like Gould's "punctuated equilibrium". I could be wrong and so could you. Simultaneous research needs to be done using the same scientific and philosophical techniques and scientists use in archaeology.

Quote:
You just made up a bunch of stuff without the tiniest shred of evidence. Nice work.


Well at least it fits the evidence provided by information technology and the gaps in the fossil record. Evolutionary gradualism from random sources of new information is not capable of matching the evidence without assuming the evidence was there but, now is lost.

Do you have any evidence supporting the once there but now lost scenario of natural evolution or are you just making **** up?
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 05:16 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
In evolution that is untrue. We have a large percentage of micro phenotypic changes lead to macro changes that ARE NOT better. macro- Adaptation macroevolution merely confer successful breeding not a damn thing more
I agree. Intelligent beings can enter bad information into the system also. So what's the point. The fossil record supports both positions. The interesting them about intelligently entered mistakes they can be corrected quickly enough to insure survival through the paradigm change while leaving gaps in the fossil record..

Quote:
All this you seem to know how? what about lichens, how-bout Carboniferous beetles with non flying wingsets.
They are bugs and moss or skin disease. What's the point?

Quote:
You seem to fall back onto one of the miisunderstandings about evolution. Changes may occur to any indivduals offspring that make it more successfully fecund but its theoverall population that we say is evolving. hat happens to an individual is like a single nail in a house.


So you just added another level of complexity to the system by making a large algorithm (evolution of an overall population) with many small algorithms operating inside (individual organisms) That are both embedded in an even larger algorithm (the ecosystem) that is having information introduced randomly but, guided naturally, that is leading the information in all the living algorithms in the population organism to a paradigm shift where, things like dinosaurs, eventually will become flying birds?

If you eliminated every other page of a novel, could you fill in the missing pages with a random letter generator and AI software so that it still makes sense? Or, how about a series of novels? A group of encyclopedias?

That's what you are asking your version of biological evolution through natural selection with random sources of new information to do. That is some tremendous AI software running in that living algorithm. Isn't it?

Biological evolution through natural selection with intelligent input to make through the paradigm shifts can do both. Finish the novel and provide the missing information needed in to make biological evolution flow smoothly.

And create your magnificent AI algorithms needed for natural evolution to work naturally.

0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 05:22 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Equating doable "reverse engineering" with reconstructing life separated by many millions of generations is not in our quiver because we dont know the genomic equivalencis of what we need to mess with and we are only guessing
Yes you do. It's called naive realism and subjective idealism. Archaeologists use it all the time. Their science would be as meaningless as biological evolution without it.

Quote:
We can reanimate a columbian mammoth because we can see the DNA and recreate it in the lab.
Now that's a start. Using intelligence to understand what intelligence wrote into the DNA of a mammoth. Now let's keep going with the reverse engineering and try and thinking like the designer of the mammoth. Then we would be thinking like an archaeologist does everyday.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 05:25 pm
This guy is always asking for explanations, proof and evidence. He proivides zero evidence himself, and just maunders on with off-the-wall speculations which always end with him claiming he has confirmed ID. It's beyond me, and it's no longer even entertaining--it's just tedious.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 05:27 pm
@farmerman,
And that's putting the chicken before the cart. It's gonna be hard pulling.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 06:04 pm
@brianjakub,
I can see that your attempt at discussions are based upon one default locus and Im just fooling myself . Ive gone though the ID phase early in life and found it totally barren of anything scientific or even logical. Its all verbiage coating christian and conservative judaism and at least 3 wings of islam religions and its based upon ones need to feel important in the universe by being told by the agents of a deity.

Quote:
It's called naive realism and subjective idealism. Archaeologists use it all the time. Their science would be as meaningless as biological evolution without it.


By tht statement I can easily see that you neither understand evolution nor archeology and how each conducts investigations.


You can wait for Godot , Ill move on with my applied research and not lose sleep that Ive failed once again to convince the unconvincable. Right now Im more interested in the NCSE's approach at the upcoming Looney laws waiting for passage in the Fla Legislature.

We may be back in court and itll be the same tired old argument by the Creationist /IDiots.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 08:00 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
The fossil record shows it that way and genetic analysis confirms.


You forgot to wait to read farmer's next post where he explains to you followers that we cannot confirm your assertion from fossil DNA (because it's not there anymore).

But it's amusing the way you paint yourself into 'farmer's corners'.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 09:02 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
This guy is always asking for explanations, proof and evidence. He proivides zero evidence himself, and just maunders on with off-the-wall speculations which always end with him claiming he has confirmed ID. It's beyond me, and it's no longer even entertaining--it's just tedious.
give an example.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 09:15 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:

I can see that your attempt at discussions are based upon one default locus and Im just fooling myself . Ive gone though the ID phase early in life and found it totally barren of anything scientific or even logical. Its all verbiage coating christian and conservative judaism and at least 3 wings of islam religions and its based upon ones need to feel important in the universe by being told by the agents of a deity.


My only reason for ID is the belief in subjective/objective idealism, naive realism, to explain the ontology of what we observe as naturalism. In other words, "I believe everything I see is real, is information, and all information was thought up by somebody or, altered by somebody for a purpose."

Quote:
farmer:
It's called naive realism and subjective idealism. Archaeologists use it all the time. Their science would be as meaningless as biological evolution without it.


brian:
By tht statement I can easily see that you neither understand evolution nor archeology and how each conducts investigations.


When an archaeologists looks at stone hedge he uses naturalism to determine if it has natural origins or if it is man made or both.

He uses naive realism to determine what it possibly could have been used for. (lines up with solstice, fairly permanent structure, etc. . .

Then he uses subjective realism to try and determine who built it and what the ontology of the structure is.

Is that a proper understanding of the philosophies used by an archaeologist?
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2018 09:29 pm
@Helloandgoodbye,
Quote:
Noah lived 350 years after the flood. So this means 350x25,000=8,750,000 years of history just for Noah alone never mind his direct descendants. And the animals in the ark for 25,000 years....


The ark was not as much a boat, as it was a process. The story of the ark is the shortened version of a long detailed story that was much too complex nor necessary to be passed on in detail by the culture of the time. It was left vague but true for us to fill in with science, future revelations that are in later prophetic books in the bible, a gleaning details from other ancient traditions, and science.

The scientific evidence is real. The dating is questionable at times but, 10 of millions of years is almost certain and possibly more in both the bible and science. Something happened during the flood that shortened man's lives, made it necessary for man to eat meat, made the animals fear man, and gave us the first rainbow. It was a major event that was not just, an earth changing but, a universe changing event.
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