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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 09:44 am
@brianjakub,
Scientists didn't set out to disprove religious orthodoxy, if anything, they were trying to confirm it. Going up against the Pope was detrimental to one's health, but their observations proved otherwise.

Scientists have recreated conditions just before the Big Bang, and particles do just pop into existence. There's nothing to suggest it's there by design, but if you want to stick God in there that's up to you.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 10:07 am
@izzythepush,
Why is it that people of religion has such a hard time accepting what scientists find and share that proves evolution? I know some people of religion also believe in science, but there are too many who can't accept the evidence of evolution.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 11:20 am
@cicerone imposter,
I don't know, but there's plenty of religious people, including the current pope, who accept evolution. Isn't it all supposed to be about faith anyway?
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 11:34 am
@izzythepush,
Yeah, I like that. The concept of evolution freed us from the slavery of the church and allowed us the freedom of the spiritual quest. As Alan Watts said: "Belief is holding onto, but faith is letting go."
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 12:32 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

The same can be said about random processes resulting in matter, life. and sexual reproduction.

There is no theory for that.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 01:32 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
I respond with every system that creates complexity (a system with artificial intelligence) has a designer.
I hope you realize how circular your "reasoning " is.
Ive only come to a conclusion that all life is done through random variability (mutation etc) and NATURAL selection. Why??
All th evidence I see points to a fact that so many variables react together to "select the species " that will liv for a while.

Time undisclosed
many similar species of the same genus have lived at the same time and few have survived nd bred

These species produce even more species that survive and breed or are rendered extinct

spcies respond to biogeographical pressures and related species living just a few miles apart under different edaphic factors (like isolation by water bodies, elevations of topography , tectonics, etc)

Im convinced via the evidence that all these edaphic factors are natural occurences and not "design elements"

climatological factors seem to generate species that evolve to adapt to all the variables in climatological zones. (NOW, unless you believe in stuff like the Biblical FLOOD, or that these climatological factors are "design elements" then you must agree that adaptation is natural

The genome is composed of chemicals, the reactions of which are known quite well and the linkages of which respond to the same changes in edaphic factors.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 01:39 pm
@brianjakub,
I can only respond to afew of the "rules" (like metalo-organic reactions or Eh/pH , surface chemistry, peptide linkage or enzyme cascades that are modified through chemistry ).
Its amazing how we have an entire industry that creates entire DNA segments, mixtures , or arrangements from simple fermentation .We "can" design or create these mixes, (but so can nature and in fact it was by watching the natural world that we are able to do these things)

0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 03:29 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
rules exist.
Why? Where do they come from?

The rules that establish the rules you understand (as metalo-organic reactions or Eh/pH , surface chemistry, peptide linkage or enzyme cascades that are modified through chemistry ) are a result of the nuclear forces, qm, relativity, the physical constants, and the underlying geometrical order established in the higgs field and matter which is described mathematically by the wave equation.

Quote:
so far no "big intelligence" is needed


To confidently make that statement you have to be able to explain why the nuclear forces, qm, relativity, the physical constants, and the underlying geometrical order established in the higgs field and matter exist and are described mathematically by the wave equation.

Wouldn't you agree?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 03:38 pm
@coluber2001,
My family were Yorkshire Methodists, my parents weren't too bad, we just had to go occasionally, but when we went to my grandparent's, (which was a lot,) it was every Sunday, (sometimes twice!) I hated it.

That's what gets me about this organisation called the Sunday Assembly, aimed at Atheists and Agnostics who miss all the 'good' parts of church. The only good part I remember was being told you could go home. The best thing about not being religious, is not going to church or anything else that remotely resembles a bloody church.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 03:45 pm
@izzythepush,
It's about faith, but the bible teaches that god created earth and its inhabitants. According to scholars who studied the bible, that would make the earth only 7,000 years old, and we know that planet earth is over 4.5 billion years old, and humans about 200,000 years.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 03:47 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Scientists didn't set out to disprove religious orthodoxy, if anything, they were trying to confirm it. Going up against the Pope was detrimental to one's health, but their observations proved otherwise.


And about 80% of the population (including a lot of scientists) don't think they have.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/210956/belief-creationist-view-humans-new-low.aspx

Quote:
Scientists have recreated conditions just before the Big Bang, and particles do just pop into existence. There's nothing to suggest it's there by design, . . .


That is a false statement.

wiki
Quote:
Large particle accelerators can replicate the conditions that prevailed after the early moments of the universe, resulting in confirmation and refinement of the details of the Big Bang model. However, these accelerators can only probe so far into high energy regimes. Consequently, the state of the universe in the earliest instants of the Big Bang expansion is still poorly understood and an area of open investigation and speculation.


Open to only certain types of invesdtigation and speculation that are based on the philosophical view of naturalism and not naive or common sense realism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_naturalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_realism

Both are legitimate scientific points of view but, only naturalism is considered a valid scientific point of view by people like you. Open minded people like me believe both are valid and should be considered.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 03:58 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Why is it that people of religion has such a hard time accepting what scientists find and share that proves evolution? I know some people of religion also believe in science, but there are too many who can't accept the evidence of evolution.
I keep telling you evolution happened and it is a almost a given fact.

The reason people that have the common sense realism philosophical point of view eventually start looking for the Designer and find him/her/it in religion is because," evidence supports the view that the "rules " that evolution follows which are/were established "physically in reality" as the higgs field and matter which, are described by quantum mechanics and relativity could not be established by pure chance."
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 04:05 pm
People who ascribe human style reasoning to nature are projecting their own mental processes on an unemotional universe.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 04:10 pm
@brianjakub,
You're trying to make it more difficult than it really is. The environment of planet earth made life possible. It was by evolution that life forms developed or died off based on the environment.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 04:29 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I don't know, but there's plenty of religious people, including the current pope, who accept evolution. Isn't it all supposed to be about faith anyway?


Quote:
VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis has waded into the controversial debate over the origins of human life, saying the big bang theory did not contradict the role of a divine creator, but even required it.

The pope was addressing the plenary assembly of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, which gathered Monday at the Vatican to discuss "Evolving Concepts of Nature."

"When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so," Francis said.

"He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfillment."


I think the Pope was saying if God had controlled the whole universe like a magician there would be no free will for man to operate in. There would be no freedom to choose to sacrifice out of love.
Quote:

I. CATECHESIS ON CREATION

282 Catechesis on creation is of major importance. It concerns the very foundations of human and Christian life: for it makes explicit the response of the Christian faith to the basic question that men of all times have asked themselves:120 "Where do we come from?" "Where are we going?" "What is our origin?" "What is our end?" "Where does everything that exists come from and where is it going?" The two questions, the first about the origin and the second about the end, are inseparable. They are decisive for the meaning and orientation of our life and actions.

283 The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers. With Solomon they can say: "It is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists, to know the structure of the world and the activity of the elements. . . for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me."121

284 The great interest accorded to these studies is strongly stimulated by a question of another order, which goes beyond the proper domain of the natural sciences. It is not only a question of knowing when and how the universe arose physically, or when man appeared, but rather of discovering the meaning of such an origin: is the universe governed by chance, blind fate, anonymous necessity, or by a transcendent, intelligent and good Being called "God"? And if the world does come from God's wisdom and goodness, why is there evil? Where does it come from? Who is responsible for it? Is there any liberation from it?

285 Since the beginning the Christian faith has been challenged by responses to the question of origins that differ from its own. Ancient religions and cultures produced many myths concerning origins. Some philosophers have said that everything is God, that the world is God, or that the development of the world is the development of God (Pantheism). Others have said that the world is a necessary emanation arising from God and returning to him. Still others have affirmed the existence of two eternal principles, Good and Evil, Light and Darkness, locked, in permanent conflict (Dualism, Manichaeism). According to some of these conceptions, the world (at least the physical world) is evil, the product of a fall, and is thus to be rejected or left behind (Gnosticism). Some admit that the world was made by God, but as by a watch-maker who, once he has made a watch, abandons it to itself (Deism). Finally, others reject any transcendent origin for the world, but see it as merely the interplay of matter that has always existed (Materialism). All these attempts bear witness to the permanence and universality of the question of origins. This inquiry is distinctively human.

286 Human intelligence is surely already capable of finding a response to the question of origins. The existence of God the Creator can be known with certainty through his works, by the light of human reason,122 even if this knowledge is often obscured and disfigured by error. This is why faith comes to confirm and enlighten reason in the correct understanding of this truth: "By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear."123

287 The truth about creation is so important for all of human life that God in his tenderness wanted to reveal to his People everything that is salutary to know on the subject. Beyond the natural knowledge that every man can have of the Creator,124 God progressively revealed to Israel the mystery of creation. He who chose the patriarchs, who brought Israel out of Egypt, and who by choosing Israel created and formed it, this same God reveals himself as the One to whom belong all the peoples of the earth, and the whole earth itself; he is the One who alone "made heaven and earth".125

288 Thus the revelation of creation is inseparable from the revelation and forging of the covenant of the one God with his People. Creation is revealed as the first step towards this covenant, the first and universal witness to God's all-powerful love.126 And so, the truth of creation is also expressed with growing vigor in the message of the prophets, the prayer of the psalms and the liturgy, and in the wisdom sayings of the Chosen People.127

289 Among all the Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. The inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation. Read in the light of Christ, within the unity of Sacred Scripture and in the living Tradition of the Church, these texts remain the principal source for catechesis on the mysteries of the "beginning": creation, fall, and promise of salvation.

II. CREATION - WORK OF THE HOLY TRINITY

290 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth":128 three things are affirmed in these first words of Scripture: the eternal God gave a beginning to all that exists outside of himself; he alone is Creator (the verb "create" - Hebrew bara - always has God for its subject). The totality of what exists (expressed by the formula "the heavens and the earth") depends on the One who gives it being.

291 "In the beginning was the Word. . . and the Word was God. . . all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made."129 The New Testament reveals that God created everything by the eternal Word, his beloved Son. In him "all things were created, in heaven and on earth.. . all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."130 The Church's faith likewise confesses the creative action of the Holy Spirit, the "giver of life", "the Creator Spirit" (Veni, Creator Spiritus), the "source of every good".131

292 The Old Testament suggests and the New Covenant reveals the creative action of the Son and the Spirit,132 inseparably one with that of the Father. This creative co-operation is clearly affirmed in the Church's rule of faith: "There exists but one God. . . he is the Father, God, the Creator, the author, the giver of order. He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom", "by the Son and the Spirit" who, so to speak, are "his hands".133 Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity.

III. "THE WORLD WAS CREATED FOR THE GLORY OF GOD"

293 Scripture and Tradition never cease to teach and celebrate this fundamental truth: "The world was made for the glory of God."134 St. Bonaventure explains that God created all things "not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to communicate it",135 for God has no other reason for creating than his love and goodness: "Creatures came into existence when the key of love opened his hand."136 The First Vatican Council explains:


This one, true God, of his own goodness and "almighty power", not for increasing his own beatitude, nor for attaining his perfection, but in order to manifest this perfection through the benefits which he bestows on creatures, with absolute freedom of counsel "and from the beginning of time, made out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal. . ."137
294 The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created. God made us "to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace",138 for "the glory of God is man fully alive; moreover man's life is the vision of God: if God's revelation through creation has already obtained life for all the beings that dwell on earth, how much more will the Word's manifestation of the Father obtain life for those who see God."139 The ultimate purpose of creation is that God "who is the creator of all things may at last become "all in all", thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude."140

IV. THE MYSTERY OF CREATION

God creates by wisdom and love

295 We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom.141 It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance. We believe that it proceeds from God's free will; he wanted to make his creatures share in his being, wisdom and goodness: "For you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created."142 Therefore the Psalmist exclaims: "O LORD, how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all"; and "The LORD is good to all, and his compassion is over all that he has made."143

God creates "out of nothing"

296 We believe that God needs no pre-existent thing or any help in order to create, nor is creation any sort of necessary emanation from the divine substance.144 God creates freely "out of nothing":145

If God had drawn the world from pre-existent matter, what would be so extraordinary in that? A human artisan makes from a given material whatever he wants, while God shows his power by starting from nothing to make all he wants.146
297 Scripture bears witness to faith in creation "out of nothing" as a truth full of promise and hope. Thus the mother of seven sons encourages them for martyrdom:

I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws. . . Look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.147
298 Since God could create everything out of nothing, he can also, through the Holy Spirit, give spiritual life to sinners by creating a pure heart in them,148 and bodily life to the dead through the Resurrection. God "gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist."149 And since God was able to make light shine in darkness by his Word, he can also give the light of faith to those who do not yet know him.150

God creates an ordered and good world

299 Because God creates through wisdom, his creation is ordered: "You have arranged all things by measure and number and weight."151 The universe, created in and by the eternal Word, the "image of the invisible God", is destined for and addressed to man, himself created in the "image of God" and called to a personal relationship with God.152 Our human understanding, which shares in the light of the divine intellect, can understand what God tells us by means of his creation, though not without great effort and only in a spirit of humility and respect before the Creator and his work.153 Because creation comes forth from God's goodness, it shares in that goodness - "And God saw that it was good. . . very good"154- for God willed creation as a gift addressed to man, an inheritance destined for and entrusted to him. On many occasions the Church has had to defend the goodness of creation, including that of the physical world.155

God transcends creation and is present to it.

300 God is infinitely greater than all his works: "You have set your glory above the heavens."156 Indeed, God's "greatness is unsearchable".157 But because he is the free and sovereign Creator, the first cause of all that exists, God is present to his creatures' inmost being: "In him we live and move and have our being."158 In the words of St. Augustine, God is "higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self".159

God upholds and sustains creation.

301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence:

For you love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made; for you would not have made anything if you had hated it. How would anything have endured, if you had not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved? You spare all things, for they are yours, O Lord, you who love the living.160
V. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created "in a state of journeying" (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call "divine providence" the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:

By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, "reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well". For "all are open and laid bare to his eyes", even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.161
303 The witness of Scripture is unanimous that the solicitude of divine providence is concrete and immediate; God cares for all, from the least things to the great events of the world and its history. The sacred books powerfully affirm God's absolute sovereignty over the course of events: "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases."162 And so it is with Christ, "who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens".163 As the book of Proverbs states: "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will be established."164

304 And so we see the Holy Spirit, the principal author of Sacred Scripture, often attributing actions to God without mentioning any secondary causes. This is not a "primitive mode of speech", but a profound way of recalling God's primacy and absolute Lordship over history and the world,165 and so of educating his people to trust in him. The prayer of the Psalms is the great school of this trust.166

305 Jesus asks for childlike abandonment to the providence of our heavenly Father who takes care of his children's smallest needs: "Therefore do not be anxious, saying, "What shall we eat?" or "What shall we drink?". . . Your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well."167

Providence and secondary causes

306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures' co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God's greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.

307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of "subduing" the earth and having dominion over it.168 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God's will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings.169 They then fully become "God's fellow workers" and co-workers for his kingdom.170

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171 Far from diminishing the creature's dignity, this truth enhances it. Drawn from nothingness by God's power, wisdom and goodness, it can do nothing if it is cut off from its origin, for "without a Creator the creature vanishes."172 Still less can a creature attain its ultimate end without the help of God's grace.173


Paragraph 286 talks about knowing with certainty but also having faith. Both naturalists and common sense realists have things they are certain of things they take on faith. Naturalists take on faith that some day they will be able to explain why the constants, the forces and, the laws of physics exist and how they came about without an intelligent creator.

I already know why they exist but I had to imagine how an intelligent designer arranged the virtual particles of the higgs field and the particles matter and caused them to move so that the interacting waves we observe today came into existence.

Someone with more time than me (that is working in the necessary scientific fields) needs to do the same. Unfortunately it is either illegal or not trending in our current educational system. It is too bad that trends play such an important role in science rather than open discussion when interpreting the evidence.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 04:33 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
brianjakub wrote:

The same can be said about random processes resulting in matter, life. and sexual reproduction.

Quote:

There is no theory for that.


Because the scientific community is doing its best to prevent it from happening.

Why are they so bigoted?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 04:33 pm
@brianjakub,
The explanation of the evolution of homo sapiens is very simple. Homo sapiens are in the primate family.
http://humanorigins.si.edu/education/introduction-human-evolution
Quote:
Humans are primates. Physical and genetic similarities show that the modern human species, Homo sapiens, has a very close relationship to another group of primate species, the apes.
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 04:47 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
It's about faith, but the bible teaches that god created earth and its inhabitants. According to scholars who studied the bible, that would make the earth only 7,000 years old, and we know that planet earth is over 4.5 billion years old, and humans about 200,000 years


A proper interpretation of the bible using the way people produced calendars before or during the flood puts the earth at about 40,000,000 years from the fall of man to the end of the flood. Start using that number when you talk about the bible so you are at least a little more accurate.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 05:17 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I hope you realize how circular your "reasoning " is.
Ive only come to a conclusion that all life is done through random variability (mutation etc) and NATURAL selection. Why??
All th evidence I see points to a fact that so many variables react together to "select the species " that will liv for a while.


Today as we observe the system from inside the system as part of the system I would agree that except for human intervention it is operating on purely random variability. But, how the hardware for the system was established and how the algorithm was installed is another story.

Daniel Dennet shows some very circular reasoning in this video,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTFoJQSd48c

What do you think?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2018 05:18 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
calendars before or during the flood puts the earth at about 40,000,000 years


No, it doesn't. The earth is over 4.5 billion years old. There were no homo sapiens existing at the time - much less any form of life.
 

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