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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 01:36 pm
@cicerone imposter,
It's all they ever had ci. Word games are the stuff of human life. Have you forgotten your Wittgenstein already.

When are you going to answer the question whether you wish to see the US peopled with 300,000,000 atheists? It's easy enough.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 08:10 am
TEXAS UPDATE
Quote:
Texas Debate Over Evolution Curriculum Could Affect Nation's Textbooks
(By Maggie Kerkman, Fox News, March 6, 2009)

A battle is brewing in Texas that could change the nation's science textbooks and the way evolution is taught in school.

The State Board of Education is now conducting a formal review of standards it uses in its science curriculum after the board voted in January to drop a 20-year-old mandate that science teachers address both "strengths and weaknesses" of the theory of evolution.

That mandate was a compromise between religious conservatives who question evolution and scientists who embrace it. Federal courts have ruled against forcing the teaching of creationism and the similar theory of intelligent design.

The reversal of the mandate prompted the education board's Republican chairman, Don McLeroy, to tack on an amendment to the preliminary draft, essentially restoring the requirement.

"I have a problem with those who say there's no weaknesses to evolution," McLeroy told FOX News.

Kathy Miller, president of the watchdog group Texas Freedom Network, has argued that the word weaknesses "has become a code word in the culture wars to attack evolution and promote creationism."

The final vote on the new standards will come later this month.

"Anything can happen in the final vote," said Miller. "The board can vote to go back to the old standards with strengths and weaknesses in them. The board can vote to eliminate the amendments that Chairman McLeroy forced into the curriculum standards. Virtually any change can be made."

The significance of the Texas ruling could impact textbooks nationwide.

Since Texas is the second largest consumer of textbooks in the U.S., publishers often create a book that meets Texas standards and then sell the same version to school districts across the country.

Any standards the board adopts when it votes on the new science standards at the end of March won't impact textbooks until 2012.

McLeroy said he hopes to see the original language restored in the final vote.

"I want to see the United States keep its scientific edge," he said. "And I think the way you do that is by being honest with the kids, you teach them the science, you show them the weaknesses and strengths."

(Emphasis Added)
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 08:17 am
@wandeljw,
The uneducated, lunatic fringe of the right wing fundamentalist Christians are now moving into flaunting the law of attrition -- something that never works in sales except perhaps on the ignorant. They are selling religious ideology like an unlicensed street vendor tries to sell fake Rolex watches. I think they believe they are sincere, that they aren't fabricating a sales pitch that they hope will stick.

What they overlook is that teachers right down to grammar school will have to increase their studies of the subject of evolution and actually find gaping holes where Creationism or its clone, ID, will fit into a lesson plan. I don't think all teachers can take that time and the US is already low on the list of quality of education worldwide. The Texas anti-science instigators are trying to play it like an old, broken down fiddle and crossing their fingers the teachers will play the role of a backwoods hick.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 08:45 am
On FreeRepublic recently:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2185842/posts
Quote:
Real science theories don't NEED to be "updated" on an annual basis.

The problem is with the basic laws of mathematics and probability, with which evolution is essentially incompatible. Mathematicians and not Christians are probably the group which rejects evolution to the greatest extent on a percentage basis.

The best illustration of how stupid evolutionism really is involves trying to become some totally new animal with new organs, a new basic plan for existence, and new requirements for integration between both old and new organs.

Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.

For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together, so that the chances of evolving any of these things by any process resembling evolution (mutations plus selection) would amount to an infinitessimal, i.e. one divided by some gigantic number.

In probability theory, to compute the probability of two things happening at once, you multiply the probabilities together. That says that the likelihood of all these things ever happening at once (which is what you'd need), best case, is ten or twelve such infinitessimals multiplied together, i.e. a tenth or twelth-order infinitessimal. The whole history of the universe isn't long enough for that to happen once.

All of that was the best case. For the pieces of being a flying bird to evolve piecemeal would be much harder. In real life, natural selection could not plausibly select for hoped-for functionality, which is what would be required in order to evolve flight feathers on something which could not fly apriori. In real life, all you'd ever get would some sort of a random walk around some starting point, rather than the unidircetional march towards a future requirement which evolution requires.

And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such reature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.

Now, it would be miraculous if, given all the above, some new kind of complex creature with new organs and a new basic plan for life had ever evolved ONCE.

Evolutionism, however (the Theory of Evolution) requires that this has happened countless billions of times, i.e. an essentially infinite number of absolutely zero probability events.

And, if you were starting to think that nothing could possibly be any stupider than believing in evolution despite all of the above (i.e. that the basic stupidity of evolutionism starting from 1980 or thereabouts could not possibly be improved upon), think again. Because there is zero evidence in the fossil record to support any sort of a theory involving macroevolution, and because the original conceptions of evolution are flatly refuted by developments in population genetics since the 1950's, the latest incarnation of this theory, Steve Gould and Niles Eldredge's "Punctuated Equilibrium or punc-eek" attempts to claim that these wholesale violations of probabilistic laws all occurred so suddenly as to never leave evidence in the fossil record, and that they all occurred amongst tiny groups of animals living in "peripheral" areas. That says that some velocirapter who wanted to be a bird got together with fifty of his friends and said:

Guys, we need flight feathers, and wings, and specialized bones, hearts, lungs, and tails, and we need em NOW; not two years from now. Everybody ready, all together now:
OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

You could devise a new religion by taking the single stupidest doctrine from each of the existing religions, and it would not be as stupid as THAT.

But it gets even stupider.

Again, the original Darwinian vision of gradualistic evolution is flatly refuted by the fossil record (Darwinian evolution demanded that the vast bulk of ALL fossils be intermediates) and by the findings of population genetics, particularly the Haldane dilemma and the impossible time requirements for spreading genetic changes through any sizeable herd of animals.

Consider what Gould and other punk-eekers are saying. Punc-eek amounts to a claim that all meaningful evolutionary change takes place in peripheral areas, amongst tiny groups of animals which develop some genetic advantage, and then move out and overwhelm, outcompete, and replace the larger herds. They are claiming that this eliminates the need to spread genetic change through any sizeable herd of animals and, at the same time, is why we never find intermediate fossils (since there are never enough of these CHANGELINGS to leave fossil evidence).

Obvious problems with punctuated equilibria include, minimally:

1. It is a pure pseudoscience seeking to explain and actually be proved by a lack of evidence rather than by evidence (all the missing intermediate fossils). Similarly, Cotton Mather claimed that the fact that nobody had ever seen or heard a witch was proof they were there (if you could SEE them, they wouldn't BE witches...) This kind of logic is less inhibiting than the logic they used to teach in American schools. For instance, I could as easily claim that the fact that I'd never been seen with Tina Turner was all the proof anybody should need that I was sleeping with her. In other words, it might not work terribly well for science, but it's great for fantasies...

2. PE amounts to a claim that inbreeding is the most major source of genetic advancement in the world. Apparently Steve Gould never saw Deliverance...

3. PE requires these tiny peripheral groups to conquer vastly larger groups of animals millions if not billions of times, which is like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day, for millions of years.

4. PE requires an eternal victory of animals specifically adapted to localized and parochial conditions over animals which are globally adapted, which never happens in real life.

5. For any number of reasons, you need a minimal population of any animal to be viable. This is before the tiny group even gets started in overwhelming the vast herds. A number of American species such as the heath hen became non-viable when their numbers were reduced to a few thousand; at that point, any stroke of bad luck at all, a hard winter, a skewed sex ratio in one generation, a disease of some sort, and it's all over. The heath hen was fine as long as it was spread out over the East coast of the U.S. The point at which it got penned into one of these "peripheral" areas which Gould and Eldredge see as the salvation for evolutionism, it was all over.

The sort of things noted in items 3 and 5 are generally referred to as the "gambler's problem", in this case, the problem facing the tiny group of "peripheral" animals being similar to that facing a gambler trying to beat the house in blackjack or roulette; the house could lose many hands of cards or rolls of the dice without flinching, and the globally-adapted species spread out over a continent could withstand just about anything short of a continental-scale catastrophe without going extinct, while two or three bad rolls of the dice will bankrupt the gambler, and any combination of two or three strokes of bad luck will wipe out the "peripheral" species. Gould's basic method of handling this problem is to ignore it.

And there's one other thing which should be obvious to anybody attempting to read through Gould and Eldridge's BS:

The don't even bother to try to provide a mechanism or technical explaination of any sort for this "punk-eek"

They are claiming that at certain times, amongst tiny groups of animals living in peripheral areas, a "speciation event(TM)" happens, and THEN the rest of it takes place. In other words, they are saying:

ASSUMING that Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happens, then the rest of the business proceeds as we have described in our scholarly discourse above!

Again, Gould and Eldridge require that the Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happen not just once, but countless billions of times, i.e. at least once for every kind of complex creature which has ever walked the Earth. They do not specify whether this amounts to the same Abracadabra-Shazaam each time, or a different kind of Abracadabra-Shazaam for each creature.


kinda nails it....

Evolution is garbage science and, as garbage science goes, a spectacularly dangerous variety of such with two world wars and two or three hundred million dead bodies lying around to its credit.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 09:25 am
@Lightwizard,
It's just the chap with big feet telling us again that he takes a large shoe size. Turn it up old boy.

When are you going to answer the question whether you wish to see the US peopled with 300,000,000 atheists? It's easy enough.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 12:09 pm
@gungasnake,
Thats why mathematicians cant handle biology. THey are too stupidly involved with immutability of equations that they dont understand the mutability of the living state.

PS, we always quote the NEW REPUBLIC for unbiased reporting about the sciences. Sounds like gunga wrote the article doesnt it?
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 12:25 pm
@farmerman,
Friend wrote it originally; different people post it on FR here and there.

I have several friends and acquaintances who have taught biology on college and high school levels and they all tell me the same thing, i.e. that they actively looked for a way to believe the bullshit (evolution) for 20 - 30 years, and were not able to find it. They all view it as a fairytale for grown people.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 12:55 pm
@gungasnake,
You have frienda who teach biology and are Creationists?. Im sure they didnt hve any ideas about what they are missing.You seem to hang out with similarly obtuse folks. Do you and they get the same flu shot each year?
I understand that THey try to teach biology at Bob Jones, and its Creationist crapdoodle. Your free association with the Holocaust is about as stupid as your overall worldview . Whenever your Cretinist friend can find some evidence to spuuort their idocy, Im sure we can all be entertained. SO far, no go.
You cant pose a "scientific argument" by not proposing your own mechanisms with some evidence to support.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 01:10 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
3. PE requires these tiny peripheral groups to conquer vastly larger groups of animals millions if not billions of times, which is like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day, for millions of years.

4. PE requires an eternal victory of animals specifically adapted to localized and parochial conditions over animals which are globally adapted, which never happens in real life.

Sounds like your author friend has no idea about how edaphics work. The earth has hundreds of thousands of microclimates and surfaces. The Alleghany CAve rat is adapted to the tops of the ALleghaeny mountains by developing a larger boidy, smaller tail, and different dentition. ADAPTATION OFTEN BEGETS EVOLUTION (so does gene flow and genetic drift)


Quote:
Again, the original Darwinian vision of gradualistic evolution is flatly refuted by the fossil record (Darwinian evolution demanded that the vast bulk of ALL fossils be intermediates) and by the findings of population genetics
TLKING out of your ass agin gunga. Im really tired of your mantra about no intermediates. For the inquisitve children who may actually believe that Gsnake has even the slightest idea about what hes talking about, go visit the Collection of index fossils and intermediate fossils at the SMithsonian, there are several hundred species to make the point. Gsnake tries to sound informed, but hes woefully ignorant of paleo(and evolutionary theory)


Quote:
Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.

For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together.


This is so much imprctical bullshit and it hows hoqw little you understand. (Typical of the religious "head up their assers"). The very fossil of archeopteryx is a beautiful example of a bird like dinosaur that is similar to a dynonichus and a dinosaur like bird like sinornithus. Its got it all, so to ignore it and keep shouting your mantra, makes no case for your orldview. Even the IDjits go along with common ancestry. You floodist Creationists are really in a teeny boat that is sinking in sea of cpountyer evidence.

Ill aask one more time (you seem to never acknowledge the question) WHere is some evidence that supports the Creationist worldview? All you are dsoing is trying to make an argument based on lame critique of a firmly established factual theory.
You are a clown.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 01:13 pm
@Lightwizard,
The student population of India is composed of more Honor students than we have students in the entire nation of US. Their ed systems are purely sectarian and sciences are stressed havily. We are looking at the demise of our scientific leadership with these bozo Creationists sticking their bozo heads under the tent.

spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 02:19 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
The student population of India is composed of more Honor students than we have students in the entire nation of US.


That will be because they pass people who attend a certain percentage of lectures and can write their name on the paper. How many "Honor" students there are or how many "Masters" there are is function of many factors when education is a business as Veblen said it was in the US and as it is here now.

The simple fact that you make such a banal remark as if it means something is a fair indication of your "faith".

But it's nice to see you wallowing in gunga coming back for some more patball sessions.

Do you want to see the US completely secularised with all 300m accepting your very persuasive arguments? Answer that!!
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 03:05 pm
@farmerman,
It's so easy and comfortable to reject evolution in order to avoid actually reading and absorbing factual scientific findings and substitute belief in the supernatural which only requires the brains of a simpleton. It's not that they cannot know, it's that they don't want to know. Squandering any thirst for knowledge for the completely fabricated nonsense of ID. I doubt that the same people haven't bothered to read and study much of anything the DI or any ID advocate's "alternative evolution science" other than some furtive reading of blogs.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 03:14 pm
@Lightwizard,
That's true; they don't want to know. If they accept all the evidence presented to them, they would have to admit they've made a lifelong mistake in believing in the tooth fairy. That's scary.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 03:35 pm
@cicerone imposter,
What's "scary" (scary my arse-you live a life of molloy-coddled ease) is that you won't answer the simple question I have asked you. The whole argument hinges on it and has done from long before Darwin was born. It is why the argument exists at all.

We would all prefer a complete secularisation of society if it wasn't for fear of the social consequences just as we would all prefer a life with no dentists.

The fact that you won't answer the question, none of you, means you have lost the argument all the way down the line because if you can't face up to a completely secularised society then you have to have religion. There are no fences to sit on.

Then you are the one who not only can't face up to a lifelong mistake but have to run scared from a simple question in order to pretend to yourselves that you haven't.

It goes all the way back to Cicero that it is absurd and self indulgent to preach something without facing up to it being universally accepted. And you can't face up to atheism being universally accepted. So why are you preaching it?

To be a naughty, attention seeking trouble-making nuisance who likes to frighten the aunties is the only answer.

There are no tooth fairies. That's just an infantile conceit of your's.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 04:27 pm
@spendius,
Actually ci. you might need religion more than the religionists do to give your life meaning railling against them and sitting in the corner being the odd-man-out on the basis that they believe in tooth fairies when in actual fact what they believe in is an orderly well-managed society rather than a war of all against all which is the essential message of evolution where Nature, in all its resplendent beauty is, in reality, a permanent, unremitting killing field as a scientific fact.

It was a cliched comment when the Berlin Wall fell down to wonder what the US would do without an enemy. And the only enemy you can come up with is one who believes in tooth fairies and who tries to be gentle and tolerant. A straw ball of pink cotton wool. A risk free enemy to vent your spleen on.

I can understand you being an atheist but to preach it when you don't want it universally accepted is truly pathetic.
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 05:29 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Actually ci. you might need religion more than the religionists do to give your life meaning railling against them and sitting in the corner being the odd-man-out on the basis that they believe in tooth fairies when in actual fact what they believe in is an orderly well-managed society rather than a war of all against all which is the essential message of evolution where Nature, in all its resplendent beauty is, in reality, a permanent, unremitting killing field as a scientific fact.

It was a cliched comment when the Berlin Wall fell down to wonder what the US would do without an enemy. And the only enemy you can come up with is one who believes in tooth fairies and who tries to be gentle and tolerant. A straw ball of pink cotton wool. A risk free enemy to vent your spleen on.

I can understand you being an atheist but to preach it when you don't want it universally accepted is truly pathetic.


You are so full of crap. Gentleness and tolerance from religion? What rock are you living under you fuckwit? How can anyone write so much, and yet say so little. How do you drift in and out of reality so easily? I mean, what the **** are you taking? I think too many pints have addled your brain.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 06:17 pm
@Wilso,
Quote:
I think too many pints have addled your brain.


That's a definite possibilty. I have had rather a lot.

I would neither rule it in or rule it out. There's also the possibility that not enough pints have left your brain in the pristine condition you started out with.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 06:24 pm
@spendius,
When you have converted the whole population to atheism, which must be your mission as I have explained, what is the atheist's version of The Vicar of Dibley, Father Ted, Oh Brother and Alistair Sim playing a bishop.

What will we laugh at? Will we be all po-faced twats like you gazing into the abyss of meaninglessness moping?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:03 am
Darwin andc inheritance...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2201765/posts

Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 03:08 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:


Been trolling the idiot boards again have you loser? Why don't you stay there permanently? Because no-one here is interested in the pathetic **** you dribble.
 

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