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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2011 10:32 am
@manono,
Quote:
I cannot understand how you can approach biology from a theological angle.


Right there is the very hub of the problem. Obviously biology cannot be aproached from a theological angle. But we live in a theological world and not a single one of those promoting the teaching of evolution in schools will admit to wishing to live in a biological world.

So it's a dirty trick they pull to pretend that the veracity of your statement can spill over into the socialisation process which is a theological construction derived scientifically from biological and psychological principles in the service of world domination and the freeing of mankind from barbarism. An ongoing process which has a long way to go.

What I mean is that the statement, whilst true, is simple minded.

All you need do is look at the constitution of the coalition which promotes the teaching of evolution in schools. Remember also that any promotional material they put out costs them money and thus is easily seen as an investment.

And an investment which, as I said yesterday, renders our whole expenditure on winning the hearts and minds of moderate Islamic opinion null and void.

Quote:
That kind of rethoric would in Belgium only find a mild response from a bunch of old women, nostalgic for pristine youth when catholic nuns told them what to do, what to say, what to think. When life was oh so simple and secure.


That sounds nostalgic mano. It almost aches. As it should.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2011 10:36 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
A sequence of chromosomes isn't altered by a particular way of thinking.


How do you know that izzy?

And we are not discussing "certain fundamentalists". I could discuss "certain atheists" in a way that might make the hair on your head stand vertical.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2011 10:51 am
@spendius,
What are we talking about here? I was stating that the dna sequence of say a whelk, would not be affected by what philosophical outlook we have. Whether or not one can affect one's own dna by one's thoughts is something else entirely. I'm highly sceptical, but I won't completely rule it out.

I know a lot of atheists who are total arseholes, so I'm not going to argue that point.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2011 04:15 pm
@izzythepush,
If you won't completely rule it out, despite being highly sceptical, then you open the door and with a gracious sweep of the arm welcome the hypothesis that mental states can affect physical processes and the obvious speculations arising from it.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 04:57 am
@spendius,
I don't think anything I say on the matter will make that much of a difference, but if you want to accuse me of opening a philosophical can of worms, then OK.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 05:08 am
@izzythepush,
It's more a question of physiological science I should have thought.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 05:10 am
@spendius,
Agreed, but it's Boxing Day, and I'm still trying to come to terms with reality.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 08:48 am
@spendius,
Hows this for synchronicity? There's a Royal Institution Christmas Lecture coming up the the same subject.

Quote:
Human beings are the most intelligent species on the planet because our brains have evolved to cope with complex social situations, according to this year's Royal Institution Christmas lecturer, Professor Bruce Hood. This important function takes decades to develop properly, however, and explains why we humans spend a much larger proportion of our lifespan as children than any other animal.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/dec/25/royal-institution-christmas-lectures-brain
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Dec, 2011 12:30 pm
@izzythepush,
It's hardly in sych. with what I meant but it is with Christmas.

Quote:
We don't understand how complicated they really are. I want people to come away with a sense of wonder about how a thing like the brain has such flexibility and such powerful processing capability to create this experience we have.


That could lead to narcissism. I don't think we are evolved to have a sense of wonder about how wonderful we are. It's like a body builder admiring his rippling muscles. But I understand that Bruce has such a fantastic brain that it must be difficult for him to stop contemplating it in awe.

His choice of "We" as his first word does rather take the gloss of his brain though.

Still--the lectures are for kids.
0 Replies
 
manono
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2011 07:37 am
@izzythepush,
I agree. A long day it will be and what is happening during that day?
Sciencentific research and its constructive applications might stagnate in an atmosphere of a particular way of thinking. And there is so much more to discover beside the sequence of chromosomes.
I'm already grateful that there's an accepted explanation for thunder and lightning. Still people knee down to pray like before when parents told children that god was angry.
The explanation for the combination rain and landslides... is still god's anger, I suppose. Instead of looking for a tree or a bush with a strong rootdesign.

I've remarked that christianity, islamreligion and ultra Jewish religion have something in common. They all strife to make the distance between humans and nature as wide as possible. Nature is educated as a hostile entity, it has to be subdued, it has to be mastered in every way, regardless the consequences. Even a harmless ant or a spider have to be killed. They don't invite their children to discover nature, to enjoy it, unless it is on a lawn where there is no nature at all. The teaching of evolution has links with too much of nature. Therefore...

I'm thinking of that eight-year old Jewish girl who is frightened to go to school. Her mother and she are spit at by ultra orthodox Jews in Israël because the girl is not 'decently' dressed. I'm sure that girl will probably never know that there is an evolution theory. That's what I mean with stagnation because of a way of thinking. A long day it will be.



spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2011 08:14 am
@manono,
Well- obviously Nature is Public Enemy No 1. Even that extremely militant atheist, the Marquis de Sade, referred to Nature as the "Wicked Stepmother".

How many aspects of your daily life are associated with both an offense on Nature and a defense against it.

The extolling of the virtues of Nature, it is killing the lot of us in a large variety of ways, with a sweet and easy sentimentality, is hardly going to have much traction with people who attack its forces and defend themselves against them with a voracity which is suggestive of a single-minded obsession.

This is a science thread mano. A dirty business actually.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2011 10:29 am
NEW HAMPSHIRE UPDATE
Quote:
Bills aim to roll back teaching evolution
(By Sarah Palermo / Concord Monitor / December 29, 2011)

To state Rep. Jerry Bergevin, the horrors of the Columbine school shooting and the atrocities of Nazi Germany are linked by the theory of evolution, and that's all the evidence he needs to see that New Hampshire's children shouldn't be taught that it's correct.

Bergevin, a Republican from Manchester serving his first term, introduced one of two bills that will be before the Legislature next year addressing evolution, the first in the state since the late 1990s.

The second bill, introduced by Reps. Gary Hopper of Weare and John Burt of Goffstown, more vaguely calls for science teachers to "instruct pupils that proper scientific (inquiry) results from not committing to any one theory or hypothesis . . . and that scientific and technological innovations based on new evidence can challenge accepted scientific theories."

Hopper points to the state constitution and its order that teachers support their students' "morality and piety" for the justification of his bill.

Evolution as it's currently taught tells students "life just happens. It's just a byproduct of the universe and they are here by accident," he said.

"But more and more scientists are coming to the conclusion that it was not even remotely possible that it happened by accident. I want to introduce children to the idea that they have a purpose for being here."

He would like to see intelligent design - the idea that a creator controlled how early life on Earth developed - taught in classrooms, but hasn't been able to find an example of the philosophy being successfully legislated into schools.

"I want the problems with the current theories to be presented so that kids understand that science doesn't really have all the answers. They are just guessing," he said.

Currently, science class "is like having a creative writing class where the students are told what to create," he said. "Science is a creative process, not an absolute thing."

Bergevin is less interested in the science of evolution than he is in the political and religious views of Darwin and his disciples. His bill would require schools to teach evolution as a theory, and include "the theorists' political and ideological viewpoints and their position on the concept of atheism."

"I want the full portrait of evolution and the people who came up with the ideas to be presented. It's a worldview and it's godless. Atheism has been tried in various societies, and they've been pretty criminal domestically and internationally. The Soviet Union, Cuba, the Nazis, China today: they don't respect human rights," he said.

"As a general court we should be concerned with criminal ideas like this and how we are teaching it. . . . Columbine, remember that? They were believers in evolution. That's evidence right there," he said.

While some evolutionary biologists claim to be Christians or otherwise religious, "it changes every six months. What today is evolution is going to be different six months from now."

But none of that is true, said Eugenie Scott, the executive director of the National Center for Science Education, which promotes education of evolution, climate change and the teaching of science as a way of knowing facts about the world.

"Yes, it is the case that scientific explanations change with new data, but at some point you reach the stage where there is an agreement among scientists. . . . You're not improving science education for young people by pretending that well-established ideas are up for grabs. The idea of evolution, that living things have common ancestors, is not being challenged in science today," she said.

"Neither of these bills are going to advance science education in New Hampshire and neither of them deserve to be inflicted upon the students in your state."

Legislators in seven other states proposed similar bills this year, and all were defeated. The bills confuse the scientific use of the word "theory" with the common use, she said.

Bergevin's bill "should be obviously unacceptable to legislators on its face. They ought to be able to see pretty quickly that this bill is just silly," Scott said.

"Evolutionary scientists are Democrats and Republicans, Libertarians and Greens and everything. Similarly, their religious views are all over the map, too. . . . If you replace atheism in the bill with Protestantism, or Catholicism, or Judaism or any other view, it's clear to see it's not going to pass legal muster."

Besides, the bill would present teachers with the impossible task of tracking down information about every scientist mentioned in a textbook or other class material, "which is pretty dopey," she said.

Hopper's bill is more broadly worded and could be used to challenge scientific teachings on any topic.

"In a sense that makes it more dangerous," she said.

Both bills have been referred to the House Education Committee for hearings in early February.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2011 11:35 am
@wandeljw,
These are the kind of things that makes religion dangerous; their zeal to teach creationism over science only diminishes our children's education - especially in the sciences.

It's somewhat similar to the 99%; some continue to advocate for more tax cuts for the wealthy as our country goes to pot. They just don't see the destruction they are imposing on everybody with their myopia.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2011 12:15 pm
@wandeljw,
It is not uncommon, wande, for ladies and certain sorts of men too, surprisingly, to employ word formulations of the type--

Quote:
They ought to be able to see pretty quickly that this bill is just silly.


and

Quote:
which is pretty dopey.


and

Quote:
In a sense that makes it more dangerous.


when they are at a loss for words.

Such expressions, and I have been called a "silly man" a few times in lieu of argument, are signifiers to those who already agree that the matters referred to are "silly" and "dopey" and "in a sense dangerous" and thus they are pointless.

To those who don't agree that the matters referred to are "silly" and "dopey" and "in a sense dangerous" they are also pointless because they don't constitute an argument and are thus insufficient to persuade them to change their view.

Which leaves but one aspect to have any point at all. The exercise of the vocal chords. The leadership role in effect.

What makes this particular example much more odious is that it is addressed to elected representatives by someone who owes her position to a more mysterious process in which few are consulted.

That the horrors of the Columbine school shooting and the atrocities of Nazi Germany are linked by the theory of evolution is the least of worries to those promoting evolution teaching in school. It is trivial logically. More chaff than a strawman. All actions are linked by the theory of evolution.

0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 12:24 pm
Quote:
Monster mussels and faceless fish – the weird world of subsea Scotland
(Scotsman.com, December 30, 2011)

If the name isn’t familiar, don’t rely on remembering the face either.

Amphioxus, a prehistoric “faceless and brainless” fish which is one of Scotland’s most elusive residents, has been spotted in the waters off Tankerness in Orkney.

Along with other unusual creatures, including giant mussels and brightly coloured molluscs, the rare fish has been uncovered during a series of 15 marine surveys during 2011 which have furthered our knowledge of the biodiversity of Scotland’s seas.

Amphioxus is regarded as a modern representative of the first animals that evolved a backbone. With a nerve cord down its back, it has no specific brain or face.

It grows to about 5cm long and has a translucent, fish-like body, but without any paired fins or other limbs.

While Amphioxus does have some cartilage-like material around the gill slits, mouth and tail, it has no true skeleton.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 03:05 pm
@wandeljw,
It depresses me that New Hampshire can not be listed among the idiot states with these types of Bills floating around wasting everyone's time.

I looked up these Reps and they are not in my district, so I can't vote against them directly. However, I can call and write my own reps and express my distaste for these time-wasting, education-stifling, ignorant Bills.

Thanks,
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2011 06:57 pm
@rosborne979,
Don't mention it ros. You got it off your chest. That's the main thing.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2012 07:54 am
Quote:
New Year Brings New Attacks on Evolution in Schools
(Stephanie Pappas, LiveScience.com, January 1, 2012)

The new year is bringing new controversy over teaching evolution in public schools, with two bills in New Hampshire seeking to require teachers to teach the theory more as philosophy than science.

Meanwhile, an Indiana state senator has introduced a bill that would allow school boards to require the teaching of creationism.

New Hampshire House Bill 1148 would "require evolution to be taught in the public schools of this state as a theory, including the theorists' political and ideological viewpoints and their position on the concept of atheism."

The second proposal in the New Hampshire House, HB 1457, does not mention evolution specifically but would "require science teachers to instruct pupils that proper scientific inquire [sic] results from not committing to any one theory or hypothesis, no matter how firmly it appears to be established, and that scientific and technological innovations based on new evidence can challenge accepted scientific theories or modes."

Innovation can indeed overturn old ideas, but the theory of evolution is too well-established to be tossed out like yesterday's garbage, scientists say.

"Bill 1457 turns skepticism into bewilderment," said Zen Faulkes, a biology professor at the University of Texas, Pan America. "It would ask teachers to say to students, 'Don't commit to the hypothesis that uranium has more protons than carbon,' or 'Remember, kids, tomorrow we might find out that DNA is not the main molecule that carries genetic information.' Evolution is as much a fact as either of those things, so it should be taught with the same confidence."

The theory of evolution has become a flashpoint for religious conservatives, many of whom argue that the idea of life evolving over billions of years clashes with Biblical beliefs. Republican State Rep. Gary Hopper, who with his Republican district mate John Burt introduced HB 1457, told the Concord Monitor that the theory of evolution teaches students that life is nothing but an accident.

"I want to introduce children to the idea that they have a purpose for being here," Hopper told the newspaper.

Hopper said he would like to see intelligent design, or the idea that a creator sparked life's development, taught in schools, but that he did not write the requirement into his bill because similar attempts have failed around the country.

Jerry Bergevin, a Republican who introduced HB 1148, went further, telling the Concord Monitor that atheism was linked to Nazism and the 1999 Columbine school shooting.

"I want the full portrait of evolution and the people who came up with the idea to be presented," Bergevin said. "It's a worldview and it's godless."

New Hampshire isn't the only state where battle lines have been drawn over evolution. In 2011, at least seven states considered bills that would limit the teaching of evolution in public schools. Anti-evolution bills in the last several years have failed except in Louisiana. That 2008 law gives teachers the right to bring in supplemental classroom materials that teach ideas contrary to established science in fields including evolution, climate change and the origin of life.

New Hampshire's two bills are set for hearings in the state's House Education Committee in February. Nashua Telegraph columnist David Brooks, who has been following their course, said bills related to evolution in public schools are rare in the state. The last time evolution was an issue was in 1994.

Brooks added that New Hampshire, with 1.3 million people, has 400 state representatives, each of whom gets paid $100 a year to serve. "Most of them are volunteers, many of them are retirees, so a lot of unusual bills get proposed," Brooks told LiveScience. "So the fact that an unusual bill gets proposed in New Hampshire is not always as big a deal as it would be in other states."

Indiana's proposal, state Senate Bill 89, would require that "the governing body of a school corporation may require the teaching of various theories concerning the origin of life, including creation science, within the school corporation."

"This is a bill that directly promotes that teaching of creation science," said Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, a nonprofit organization in Oakland, Calif., that defends the teaching of evolution and climate change in public schools.

"What a dinosaur. Bills specifically saying 'Thou shalt teach creation science' haven't been around for a couple of decades," Scott told LiveScience.

That's because a 1987 Supreme Court decision in the case Edwards v. Aguillard found that teaching creationism as science in public schools is unconstitutional. Any laws passed requiring the teaching of creationism would thus be thrown out by the courts.

Nevertheless, Scott said, the NCSE is keeping a close eye on state legislatures around the country. The organization helps local groups oppose anti-evolution legislation.

"Teaching students that scientific explanations that are not controversial are controversial is mis-educating them," Scott said. "And that's why these bills are bad."
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2012 11:33 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
"And that's why these bills are bad."


I might as well get into Eugenie's style--

No they're not. So there! Put that in your pipe and smoke it Scottie.

Dinosaur is hardly an appropriate comparison. Especially for a renowned anthropologist. Dinosaurs have been extinct for 65 million years and 2 decades is almost like yesterday. I still wear clothes I was wearing 2 decades ago. Waste not want not is my motto rather than lay waste to the earth. When there's a predatory pecuniary emulation competition raging based on who can waste most the earth is obviously the last fling. No doubt with the NCSE doing its bit to keep up. What with ES jetting around the country making idiotic noises. (see my previous post on EC).

And what does she mean by "creation science"? That's a ridiculous expression. A paraconundoron. There's no such thing as "creation science". Scientifically speaking. The FSM makes more sense than that does. One might, under certain unusual conditions, imagine a monster spaghetti mass flying through the air. A select few husbands will have seen such a sight. I myself have seen a plate of ruined bacon and eggs, sausage and mushrooms heading my way through space. It's trajectory being subject to the usual gravitational forces which its creator had sought to overcome.

A paraconundoron is not even imaginable. It's way out the other side of FSMs.

Besides which, it is a nice metaphor for the human brain. The symbolic figurehead of that movement which worships the human brain and is only interested in studying it from the activities it gets up to.

And our western societies are not going to look at itsy-bitsy things like Edwards v. Aguillard when it comes to right or left at the crossroads. That such trivialities are of importance is just lawyers puffing up their status.

The NCSE is never going to be significant with Eugenie doing the up-fronting.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2012 12:25 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
That's because a 1987 Supreme Court decision in the case Edwards v. Aguillard found that teaching creationism as science in public schools is unconstitutional.


But some people can interpret that to say that evolution is not science either. Maybe the two dissenting judges did that.

We end up back in the USSC deciding what is or isn't science and anything that isn't cannot be taught as science in public schools. Good luck with that.

But other things can be taught without interfering with science but evolution cannot be taught without interfering with a number of important subjects.

Quote:
"Bill 1457 turns skepticism into bewilderment," said Zen Faulkes, a biology professor at the University of Texas, Pan America. "It would ask teachers to say to students, 'Don't commit to the hypothesis that uranium has more protons than carbon,' or 'Remember, kids, tomorrow we might find out that DNA is not the main molecule that carries genetic information.' Evolution is as much a fact as either of those things, so it should be taught with the same confidence."


It is Mr Faulkes who is bewildered or else trying to bewilder us.

How many protons uranium has or has not does not impinge on every aspect of social relations. The comparison is invalid.

Would we even know what Uranium is without Christianity?

His wording on the DNA bit is too devious to discuss. Obviously DNA is the "main" molecule that carries genetic information because the "main" molecule that carries genetic information has been labelled DNA. The processes involved in genetic transmission are far too complex, probably unimaginably so, to be talked of in such a breezy manner. If he impressed a room with that I would give him a knowing wink if I caught his eye.
0 Replies
 
 

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