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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 08:36 am
@spendius,
I see, so this constitutes "relevance" in your mind? Im sorry, I dont share your belief.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 12:19 pm
@farmerman,
What the line means to me is that comments about the evil doings of the Church are superfluous philosophically and not in keeping with a strict evolutionary perspective.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 01:37 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Horner’s hypothetical “chickenosaurus” even made a cameo here. Tweaks in the genetics and development of chickens can cause the reappearance of long-lost traits, such as teeth, and by carrying out these experiments Horner hopes to understand which genes and developmental quirks were key in the evolution of birds from non-avian dinosaurs.
I wonder how these experiments were going for Mr Horner. He certainly made a big deal about tweaking chickens a few years ago so he could "reverse engineer" a dinosaur , or at least an archeopteryx. The idea, if followed up to its conclusion, could do a lot to shut up any lingering doubts in the anti-science crowd.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 02:09 pm
@farmerman,
I think it might substantially increase their doubts. The idea I mean. Carrying it out is absurd.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 04:12 pm
@spendius,
What's the minimum time for a fossil to be produced under optimum conditions? Are there distinct stages in fossil production?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:40 am
@spendius,
I know a bloke who could knock you one up in his garage overnight. What you looking for, trilobite, troglodyte or triceratops? The latter will probably take a couple of weekends though.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 04:15 am
@izzythepush,
What's his customer base?
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 04:35 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
Horner’s hypothetical “chickenosaurus” even made a cameo here. Tweaks in the genetics and development of chickens can cause the reappearance of long-lost traits, such as teeth, and by carrying out these experiments Horner hopes to understand which genes and developmental quirks were key in the evolution of birds from non-avian dinosaurs.
I wonder how these experiments were going for Mr Horner. He certainly made a big deal about tweaking chickens a few years ago so he could "reverse engineer" a dinosaur , or at least an archeopteryx. The idea, if followed up to its conclusion, could do a lot to shut up any lingering doubts in the anti-science crowd.
Yeh, we'll be doing The Devil's Work, creating demon chickens. That'll really get 'em going Wink I can't wait.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 05:01 am
@rosborne979,
yeh, but reverse engineering chicken with teeth can go a long way to reinforce the way that the genome never loses information once its been created (Usually, since there are several hundred species that lose their ancestral genomes as they become parasitic or saprophystic non-free living thinguses)
Horner made such a big deal of this that itd be nice to get updates so he doesnt appear as lame as the ID institute when it announced its multi billion investment into the "search for design" in the universe. Those guys have just disppeared into the vapors when their entire prkect seemed to have crashed and burned back in the early 2000's
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 05:37 am
@farmerman,
But fm, you should know by now after 8 years of my tutorials, that the ID guys crashing and burning has nothing to do with whether evolution should be taught to schoolchildren.

Your post demonstrates that you don't know however, despite my efforts, which hardly generates confidence in your expertise or your qualifications for having anything useful to say about the education of a superpower's upcoming scientists.

A non sequitur is not just flawed logic. It is bad advice and thus of no utility at best and dangerous at worst.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 06:33 am
@spendius,
Drunks mostly.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 10:16 am
@spendius,
Quote:
But fm, you should know by now after 8 years of my tutorials, that the ID guys crashing and burning has nothing to do with whether evolution should be taught to schoolchildren.


Thats only because you are not equipped to take in information while you are creating run-on sentences . You are too busy trying to feel clever and validate your Catholic elementary education.
Most of this stuff post- dates Pius XII.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 12:05 pm
@farmerman,
What stuff?? Chicken teeth?? Non sequiturs?? Bullshit??
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 12:43 pm
@spendius,
see? you make my case. You are so busy in the "spendi is a clever little boy", game that you dont really pay attention.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 12:46 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

yeh, but reverse engineering chicken with teeth can go a long way to reinforce the way that the genome never loses information once its been created (Usually, since there are several hundred species that lose their ancestral genomes as they become parasitic or saprophystic non-free living thinguses)
Horner made such a big deal of this that itd be nice to get updates so he doesnt appear as lame as the ID institute when it announced its multi billion investment into the "search for design" in the universe. Those guys have just disppeared into the vapors when their entire prkect seemed to have crashed and burned back in the early 2000's
I would love to see a dino-chicken, and even though evolution doesn't need any more proof to validate it, it's always nice putting more nails in the Creationists coffin. But nothing is going to change the True Believer's mind.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 02:22 pm
@farmerman,
Is everybody who proves you're hopeless a "clever little boy" then? That's another useless argument.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 04:11 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
But nothing is going to change the True Believer's mind.


Oh how the True Believer would love to change his or her mind and throw off the yoke of Christian morality. Luther was famous for starting the serious trimming. A priest who married a nun. Once he had the protection of the local warlord of course.

The only problem is that ros offers us no idea what society would be like if we all became scientific, materialist atheists which is a situation that most True Believers might well dread.

So it is very comforting for him to rail at True Believers whilst knowing that they are keeping things going in more or less the traditional way. He's in a "no lose" situation. He gets to denigrate True Believers, which must be quite exciting as it provides fodder for sarcasms, and he gets freedom from the Christian yoke whilst not risking any major changes in the order of things.

How very convenient. It's as if he thinks that western civilisation invented Christianity just to annoy him and it wasn't an exercise in practical success on evolutionary lines after all.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Nov, 2011 08:21 am
TEXAS UPDATE
Quote:
SBOE to lose its voice of reason
(John Kanelis, Amarillo Globe-News, November 12, 2011)

I have been a critic of the Texas State Board of Education for some time now.

But not of the man who since January 2003 has represented the Texas Panhandle on that 15-member board of elected politicians.

It saddens me that Bob Craig, a Lubbock lawyer, has announced his intention to step down from the SBOE.

Redistricting of the SBOE puts all seats up for election next year, even though Craig’s term wouldn’t end normally until 2014.

Why am I wearing the long face?

Well, Craig was one of those SBOE members who stood steadfast against what has been called the “social conservative wing” of the board. These are the folks who in recent years have taken it upon themselves to inject their political ideology — and in some cases their religious faith — into our public education policy.

They have insisted that educators teach our children the “theory” that the world was created in seven calendar days, as many of us have interpreted from Scripture. This biblical account, they contend, should be taught along with the science-based theory of evolution, the one put forward by Charles Darwin.

They also have rewritten curriculum standards that all but dismiss the writings and beliefs of some quite notable historical figures. You’ve heard of them: Thomas Jefferson, Mahatma Gandhi, Thurgood Marshall to name just three. They believe our students’ texts should lean in another direction, promoting the views of more “conservative” thinkers.

Bob Craig — who is far from being categorized as a flaming left-wing liberal — resisted that kind of tilt, seeking to retain some ideological balance on the board.

Craig’s tenure on the SBOE reflected his mainstream view of the board’s role: It shouldn’t set curriculum policy on the basis of politics or faith; it should rely instead on proven history.

All SBOE members say they put the children’s interests first and that they do not seek to infuse public education policy with their own world view.

But in fact, the very nature of the state ed board — it does comprise individuals who campaign for the office under Republican and Democratic banners — makes it virtually impossible for board members to keep politics out of whatever decisions they make.

Texas politics during the past two-plus decades has shifted right across the board. Every statewide elected office today is occupied by Republicans. A state that once was reliably Democratic has become even more reliably Republican. And within the Republican Party we’ve seen the emergence of a dramatically conservative wing that has manifested itself on many boards and commissions — including the State Board of Education.

And that shift has resulted in some nasty battles among board members who have battled among themselves over such issues as curriculum and SBOE financial investment policies.

Craig has represented a more mainstream version of the traditionally conservative party during his time on the board.

Texas Monthly’s Paul Burka — one of the state’s more astute political observers — posted a blog item the other day that chided Gov. Rick Perry for appointing ultraconservative board members as chairmen of the SBOE when he could select someone from the moderate mainstream to lead that often-fractious body.

Burka wrote this about Craig: “During the years when controversy on the board was at its zenith, Rick Perry named several members to the chairmanship. Had he elevated Craig during that period, the squabbling on the board might have come to an end much earlier than it did.

“Instead, he appointed a succession of right-wing chairs who had little interest in public education. Craig was a voice of reason on the board who contributed significantly to the transition to a more moderate board being elected in 2010. Although he is leaving, the board is now much more balanced than it has been in years.

“Craig set the example for what an SBOE member is supposed to be. He will be missed.”

There can be no doubt that Bob Craig has served his West Texas constituents well during his near-decade on the State Board of Education.

He did so simply by pushing back against those who think a public school classroom is the place to advance their own political or theological agenda.

The degree to which Craig’s absence will be felt, of course, depends on who steps in after him.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Nov, 2011 09:36 am
@wandeljw,
It's a lonely task, to be a liberal in Texas. This was always true, with a number of notable exceptions, but never more so than now. I would prefer education be neutral on politics and to teach science in a science class. That's not being partisan. It's being a good citizen. Those jerks on the board are too selfish to note the difference.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Nov, 2011 09:57 am
@rosborne979,
The closest thing I know of a dino-chicken is the hoatzin I saw in the Peru Amazon.
0 Replies
 
 

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