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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Sep, 2011 08:40 am
@rosborne979,
You know, I would actually give credit to the decision in the Dover case.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Sep, 2011 08:54 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

You know, I would actually give credit to the decision in the Dover case.

That's an interesting idea. But somehow I don't see a legal decision like that changing many minds.

My guess would be that exposure to the issues on the Internet is getting the whole subject onto people's "radar" and they are actually thinking about it.

On the other hand, it might simply be associated with the general decline in church attendance that is happening everywhere. Religious adherence itself may be changing to a less dogmatic form. But that may be associated with exposure to the Internet as well.

Hard to say.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Sep, 2011 08:55 am
@reasoning logic,
There's no inspiration rl. Everybody has known it for donkey's years. Secularisation has been going on synergetic with Science as the Popes knew it would. But they also knew that Science had the capacity to increase their own power as well as undermine their stated beliefs on which the peace and safety of Europe depended.

So the Vatican had factions. After some struggles the "over my dead body" Conservatives were defeated by those to whom the lure of more power was enough to persuade them that they could manage the contradiction by those methods which are sometimes known as the "weaving of the winds". Together with a few ruthless operations which secularisers used to discredit the forces holding back their own wave but which they were ready enough to employ themselves wherever it washed the beach clean of historical flotsam, jetsam, lagan and derelict; which covers everything under maritime law.

0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Sep, 2011 09:18 am
UK UPDATE
Quote:
David Attenborough Joins Campaign against Creationism in Schools
(By Nick Collins, The Telegraph, 19 September 2011)

Sir David Attenborough has weighed into a campaign calling for creationism to be banned from the school science curriculum and for evolution to be taught more widely in schools.

The naturalist joined three Nobel laureates, the atheist Richard Dawkins and other leading scientists in calling on the government to tackle the "threat" of creationism.

Gordon Brown's government issued guidance to all schools that the subject should not be taught to pupils, but neither they nor the coalition government enshrined the recommendation in law.

In a statement on a new campaign website, the 30 scientists and campaign groups including the British Science Association demanded creationism and "intelligent design" be banned outright.

Prof Colin Blakemore, the neurobiologist, Sir Paul Nurse, the President of the Royal Society, and former Royal Society director of education Rev Prof Michael Reiss were among the signatories.

Rev Prof Reiss, who has described evolution as "God's work", resigned from his Royal Society post in 2008 after suggesting science lessons ought to include discussion of creationism.

Speaking ahead of the launch today he said: "Evolution is an extremely powerful idea that lies at the heart of biology.

"At the same time, it's a sufficiently simple concept that there's no good reason why it should be left out of the primary curriculum. If creationism is discussed, it should be made clear to pupils that it is not accepted by the scientific community."

Last year the campaign group, led by the British Humanist Association (BHA) and comprising many of the same members, called for evolution to be taught in all primary schools.

Prof Dawkins said: "We need to stop calling evolution a theory. In the ordinary language sense of the word it is a fact. It is as solidly demonstrated as any fact in science."

Most schools in England teach evolution, the idea popularised by Charles Darwin that all living things developed from primitive organisms through a process of natural selection.

But the arguments of creationists, who believe God built the world in six days in line with the story of Genesis, and of devout Muslims have become steadily more popular in recent years.

Andrew Copson, chief executive of the BHA, said: "Evolution is probably the most important idea underlying biological science and we support the view of many experts that it should be introduced right from primary level in all state-maintained schools.

"At the same time, the threat of creationism and ‘intelligent design’ being taught as science is real and ongoing, particularly as more and more schools are opened up to be run by religious fundamentalists.

"It has never been more urgent for concrete steps to be taken to ensure that all state schools teach evolution, and not creationism, and we urge the Government to implement the simple and sensible measures suggested in this new statement."
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Sep, 2011 11:12 am
@wandeljw,
As those quotes, which if they issued from the average anti-IDer would be merely drivel, they are, coming from people such as those, intended to deceive.

The only alternative is that they are unaware of the absurd simplifications they are using and of the well known fact that there is another side to the argument as Prof. Reiss's resignation and the government's reluctance to act, and not just the last two either, should have alerted them to. As the folk-saying "man does not live by bread alone" should also have done.

Such lack of awareness shouldn't be possible in elite English circles which, through interpretations of 19th century German philosophy, gave the world a scientific explanation of why materialism is insufficient for human happiness or as a satisfactory theory of Life.

I think there is a general feeling within these materialist cadres that the society does not grant them the rewards they feel they are entitled to which is thus the likeliest motive for them to have discharged these expostulations into our faces.

Many eminent men who become subjectively idolatrous of the scientific method often come to feel that they know how society ought to be organised. It is one of the few things one can say in favour of politicians that they are a restraining force on such tendencies.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 04:34 am
@spendius,
Insert "dangerous" before "tendencies. (editor).
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 04:56 am
@spendius,
I can quote too wande--

Quote:
How it ought to humble us when we reflect that it was not in the Dark Ages, that it was not in countries struggling only out of barbarism, but in the very morning, in the brightness of reviving letters, in the age of a Kepler and a Galileo, when every department of human intellect was felt and supported in greatest splendour,--it was then that the dreadful contagion of witchcraft and persecution of witches raged, not in one country but passed like a postillion through all Europe, till it died in North America among the Puritans of New England. . . I mention this as a proof that it is not by learning merely, no, nor even by the knowledge of experimental physics, that the most disgraceful enthusiasm can at all times be prevented.


S.T.Coleridge. Philosophical Lectures. p.320.

Which is coming close to saying that the scientific revolution caused the witchburnings. After all the Church had existed for over a thousand years with no witchburning and the contagion appeared just when the scientific revolution was underway.

On that sociological analysis the anti-IDer's claims that religion caused such an evil contagion is up a gum tree. The very opposite of the truth.

And something very much like it surfaced in every system afterwards which embraced atheism.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 10:04 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

UK UPDATE
Quote:
David Attenborough Joins Campaign against Creationism in Schools
(By Nick Collins, The Telegraph, 19 September 2011)

But the arguments of creationists, who believe God built the world in six days in line with the story of Genesis, and of devout Muslims have become steadily more popular in recent years.

Is this because the demographics of the population are changing, or is it because the schools are failing?
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 10:28 am
@spendius,
Hush, Hush said Christobel, Spendi seldom sleepeth well.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 11:28 am
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

wandeljw wrote:

UK UPDATE
Quote:
David Attenborough Joins Campaign against Creationism in Schools
(By Nick Collins, The Telegraph, 19 September 2011)

But the arguments of creationists, who believe God built the world in six days in line with the story of Genesis, and of devout Muslims have become steadily more popular in recent years.

Is this because the demographics of the population are changing, or is it because the schools are failing?


The intelligent design movement organized in the UK much later than in the U.S. The UK Centre for Intelligent Design did not open a website until late 2010 http://www.c4id.org.uk/. Soon after, in November 2010, Michael Behe toured England and Scotland giving lectures.

An organization based in Turkey has been promoting creationism to Muslims in the UK.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 12:21 pm
@wandeljw,
You guys need the Creationists like you need oxygen. And there are no Creationists on this thread.

When I make a post you can't answer you jump on the Creationists to try to make it look like you're in the discussion. Which you are not. And you do it with the same mantras that you did 8 years ago.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 01:19 pm
@spendius,
Quote:

I can quote too wande--

Quote:
How it ought to humble us when we reflect that it was not in the Dark Ages, that it was not in countries struggling only out of barbarism, but in the very morning, in the brightness of reviving letters, in the age of a Kepler and a Galileo, when every department of human intellect was felt and supported in greatest splendour,--it was then that the dreadful contagion of witchcraft and persecution of witches raged, not in one country but passed like a postillion through all Europe, till it died in North America among the Puritans of New England. . . I mention this as a proof that it is not by learning merely, no, nor even by the knowledge of experimental physics, that the most disgraceful enthusiasm can at all times be prevented.


S.T.Coleridge. Philosophical Lectures. p.320.

Which is coming close to saying that the scientific revolution caused the witchburnings. After all the Church had existed for over a thousand years with no witchburning and the contagion appeared just when the scientific revolution was underway.

On that sociological analysis the anti-IDer's claims that religion caused such an evil contagion is up a gum tree. The very opposite of the truth.

And something very much like it surfaced in every system afterwards which embraced atheism.

Coleridge was nowhere near coming close to saying that the scientific revolution caused the witchburnings. He was saying that even learning and knowledge couldn't prevent the most disgraceful enthusiasms like those which were behind the witchburnigs.

The Church had existed for over a thousand years with persecutions backed by the most disgraceful enthusiasms against people who held beliefs different from those of its own.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 01:28 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
The Church had existed for over a thousand years with persecutions against people who held beliefs from those of its own.


That was infighting between various heresies and basically an aspect of tribal warfare. Witch persecutions were nothing of the kind. There were no witches in the Dark Ages. It was an age of chivalry. The scientific age coincided with the witchburnings.

I don't think your sophistry lays a glove on the quote.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 01:34 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

The scientific age coincided with the witchburnings.


In Denmark and Germany perhaps, over here we hanged witches.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 01:43 pm
@izzythepush,
Not always.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 01:59 pm
@spendius,
More often than not, so witchburning is a bit of a misleading terms, witchtrials would be more accurate. Or is it just a manifestation of your subconscious desires?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 05:33 pm
@izzythepush,
That's Freudian below-the-belt shite izzy and watch out I don't apply it to you now you have given me permission to. It's typical of Grauniad readers. Too clever by half.

Be careful what you say from now on.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 05:48 pm
@spendius,
You're sounding a bit over-emotional now, even a bit hysterical. Calm down dear, have a nice warming cup of cocoa. Don't you worry your tired old noggin with such things as Freud.

Try a bit of macrobiotic psychology, make sure your Jung Yang is in balance.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2011 06:05 pm
@izzythepush,
I don't think Spendius is worried about Freud but rather what he might learn about himself if he took Professor Sapolsky class!



spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Sep, 2011 05:49 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
You're sounding a bit over-emotional now, even a bit hysterical. Calm down dear, have a nice warming cup of cocoa. Don't you worry your tired old noggin with such things as Freud.


Hey--you're quite practised at that line aren't you? Did you get it of that Winner twattie?

I agree with Wilhelm Reich about Freud.
 

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