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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2011 03:36 pm
@spendius,
Spendius what has the most value? Intellectual honesty or your opinion regardless if it is emotionally motivated?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2011 04:08 pm
@reasoning logic,
HA, youre asking him to give up on all his invested time? Intellectual honesty doesnt dovetail with religious fervor.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2011 04:49 pm
@reasoning logic,
I don't have any opinions rl. I'm a scientist.

What are you talking about? What opinions? I drive on the left hand side of the road. I have no opinion about which is the best side. I go with the flow. And it's Christian. If you have an opinion that atheism is better then for ****'s sake make the argument. I can but it would make your hair stand up on end.

I found a lovely phrase reading Mailer the other day--"The Judeo-Christian liberal atheist". That sums you lot up perfectly.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2011 04:55 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Intellectual honesty doesnt dovetail with religious fervor.


And neither does it with fm's definition of science which boils down to more money and power to his claque. fm hasn't the slightest interest in intellectual honesty. He hasn't the balls for it.

That's why he hasn't given his reaction to Rick Perry running for the White House. And he was asked. He daren't risk Mr Perry winning. Which should be a piece of piss given the opposition. He even has an atheist doing his PR I understand.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2011 05:17 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

I don't have any opinions rl. I'm a scientist.


Bollocks, you're the most opinionated bastard on the whole of A2K.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2011 05:18 pm
@spendius,
Please quit with the drama and try to address each one of your view points with a layman's explanation, If you do not we will all have to inform all other readers of your insincerity! Cool
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2011 05:21 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
If you have an opinion that atheism is better then for ****'s sake make the argument


I have never made this claim but being that you are an atheist maybe you could be kind and explain to us this point of view!
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2011 05:31 pm
@reasoning logic,
I wouldn't dare.

And knock off calling other people insincere. It is not proof of your sincerity.

The claim that atheism is the way forward is at the root of all your posts. So justify it. I don't need to justify Christianity. It's the way we live now and have done, warts and all, for centuries.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2011 05:34 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I wouldn't dare.


If you do not share your intellectual honesty with the readers then some of us will use this to prove your dishonesty!

We will include your post where you have stated that you are an atheist!
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2011 07:22 am
@reasoning logic,
Go ahead rl. Your username is intellectually dishonest.

In the Gospel According to the Son, Mailer conjures up a conversation between Jesus and Judas. Judas tells Jesus that he doesn't believe any of the Kingdom of Heaven stuff. Jesus asks him why he is a follower.

"Then why are you with me", Jesus asks him.

"Because many of your sayings are closer to me than any enjoyment I receive by witnessing their games. Having grown up among them, I know what is in their hearts, and I detest them. They continue to believe they are good. They see themselves as rich in charity, in piety, and in loyalty to their people. So I scorn them. They not only tolerate the great distance between the rich and the poor, they increase it."

"Then you are with me?"

"Yes".

"Is it because I know that we cannot reach the Kingdom of Heaven until there are no rich and no poor?"

"Yes."

"Still, you almost speak as if you do not care about entering the Kingdom of Heaven."

"God strike me, but I do not believe in it."

"But you say you are with me. Why, then, are you with me?"

"Can you bear the truth?"

"I am nothing without it."

"The truth, dear Yeshua, is that I do not believe you will ever bring us all to salvation. Yet in the course of saying all that you say, the poor will take courage and feel equal to the rich. That gives me happiness."

"That alone?"

"I hate the rich. They poison all of us. They are vain, undeserving, and wasteful of the hopes of those who are beneath them. They spend their lives lying to the lowly".

The fact that Mailer is fictionalising has no bearing on the argument that he is making there.

In the evolving ideological struggle which took place with the Apostles, the disciples, those who knew them, those who knew someone who knew them, those who remembered what had been said and those who had read of it, as the years went by just as they do now, the purity of the faith was diluted in the service of establishing a Church. A world-wide Church. A catholic Church. Men of the world were needed for that. The message dribbles away into the sand otherwise. There were heretics everywhere. And confusion.

An ecclesiastical hierarchy was established to take the message into the world. To teach a theory that, while it may not undermine the Bible in any serious way, as the volume of Biblical scholarship proves, allows people to easily use it to do so, constitutes a contribution to undermining the message. "But many of your sayings.."

There are atheists who swallow their pride because they think it is insignificant compared to the message and the promotion of it.

Just as Marx said that the state would wither away, just so Judas withered away on the end of a rope for money. Which might symbolise that the discrepancy between the rich and the poor is no longer a matter of idealism but of actual survival. Which would make Judas a very powerful symbol.



reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2011 08:36 am
@spendius,
Nice story Spendius!

Quote:
the purity of the faith was diluted in the service of establishing a Church. A world-wide Church. A catholic Church. Men of the world were needed for that. The message dribbles away into the sand otherwise. There were heretics everywhere. And confusion.


I do not think that any of us know exactly what the truth is because of all the lying that has been taught threw out time.
Anyone with a new vision or a different viewpoint other than that of the ruling religious leaders were seen as heretics and that would include someone like Jesus

Galileo was also condemned as a heretic for supporting Copernicus's thesis that the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa.

I am not trying to be mean when I say this but because of lies, The catholic church has done more to harm humanity than what it has done to help it, Therefore making the church our greatest Challenge to the Teaching of Evolutionary ethics!

The people of the church do not always try to lie, sometimes they just think that they are telling the truth.

In the future the people of the church will be seen in a similar light as the people who built the pyramids!
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2011 08:47 am
@reasoning logic,
The Catholic Church does not deny evolution today.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2011 08:52 am
@izzythepush,
How far back do they say we evolved from? I have yet to meet a christian that thinks we have evolved from something that looks completely different than human!
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2011 08:57 am
@reasoning logic,
Well maybe that's because of the Christians you rub shoulders with. Very few Christians over here refute evolution. It's possible to believe in both God and evolution. I posted a way in which both evolution, and a literalist interpretation of Adam and Eve could both be true on this thread a few months ago. I was pissed up at the time though.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2011 09:03 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
Anyone with a new vision or a different viewpoint other than that of the ruling religious leaders were seen as heretics and that would include someone like Jesus.


There were heretics all over the place. The Orthodox was heresy in many places. Hence all the letters to the various hotbeds. But it won out eventually and after much persecution and violence. There were different ruling religious leaders in every city with various amounts of Pagan baggage. The Orthodox emerged in like manner that the 40,000 feathers on a pheasant's chest did. It evolved.

Quote:
Galileo was also condemned as a heretic for supporting Copernicus's thesis that the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa.


Galileo was condemned for not doing what he was told by those who knew the bigger picture. House arrest in luxurious conditions while protracted negotiations took place. Our "ethics committes" perform a similar role. Copernicus didn't try to proclaim his knowledge.

Quote:
The catholic church has done more to harm humanity than what it has done to help it, Therefore making the church our greatest Challenge to the Teaching of Evolutionary ethics!


You have an assertion you cannot prove and any conclusion based on such a flimsy foundation is a non sequitur. So much for reasoning logic and a scientific sensibility.

And pray tell us what "Evolutionary ethics" consist of. I have been trying to get anti-IDers to come clean on that subject for years. But if the Church is the greatest challenge to teaching them to schoolkids, as you say, then you had better be warned that it will take some shifting out of the way and the idea that you lot are up to the job is ridiculous.

Quote:
In the future the people of the church will be seen in a similar light as the people who built the pyramids!


Have you no idea rl what an inordinately silly statement that is. Do people not laugh in your face when you say such things?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2011 09:18 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Do people not laugh in your face when you say such things?


I have a wonderful image of you doing just that down the pub.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2011 09:54 am
@izzythepush,
Mailer said that culture is an insulation against a single idea. And so it is. The idea is not immediately apparent to everybody but once read and thought about it becomes obvious.

That is why anti-IDers get so frustrated. They don't know it you see. They underestimate culture to such an extent that they don't know it is there, it's on Ignore, and so they can't understand why we all refuse to embrace their single idea. So they get out their insults. Verbal uppercuts and right crosses. Jack Palance clearing the holster with a word.

And they're hopeless at that too.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2011 10:31 am
@spendius,
Quote:
That is why anti-IDers get so frustrated. They don't know it you see.
Or equally valid,That is why pro-IDers get so frustrated. They don't know it you see.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2011 11:10 am
@izzythepush,
They are the culture. They don't need to know it.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2011 11:56 am
UK UPDATE
Quote:
Evangelical church application to set up new free school where it will teach creationism is approved
(The Daily Mail, August 13, 2011)

An evangelical church with creationism at the heart of its belief system has been given outline approval to run a free school.

An application by the Everyday Champions Church, based in Newark, Nottinghamshire, has been accepted by the Department for Education.

The church intends to teach the biblical belief that God created the world in six days, but evolution will only be taught as a 'theory'.

Education Secretary Michael Gove, had promised that creationism will not be taught in free schools. He is 'crystal clear that teaching creationism is at odds with scientific fact', the Department of Education confirmed.

But in January he said he would consider applications from creationist groups on a case-by-case basis.

Now it has emerged that a panel of civil servants interviewed Everyday Champions Church leaders last week after their initial application was approved. It is not known if they agreed to drop plans to teach creationism.

Officials told the Daily Telegraph they could not comment on the application but each one would be treated with 'due diligence.'

Free schools can be set up by charities, universities, businesses, educational groups, teachers and groups of parents.

They are independent from local authorities and do not have to follow the national curriculum. However, lessons must be 'broad and balanced.'

As with independent schools, free school teachers will not need formal teaching qualifications.

The church wants to open the new 625-pupil school in September next year and says there are currently not enough secondary places available in the area.

Pastor Gareth Morgan, the church's leader, told the Independent: 'Creationism will be embodied as a belief at the Everyday Champions Academy but will not be taught in the sciences. Similarly, evolution will be taught as a theory.'

The church's website says the new school, with will be 'multicultural in philosophy and will welcome children from all faiths or none'.

However, it adds that the 'values of the Christian faith will be the foundation of the school philosophy'.

The website says: 'We believe that the Bible is God's Word. It is accurate, authoritative and applicable to our every day lives.'

Secular groups have criticised education officials for accepting the application and were 'astonished ' it was even considered.

Richy Thompson, of the British Humanist Assocaition, said: 'Everyday Champions Church have been very clear that they intend to teach creationism as valid, and sideline evolution as just ‘a theory’.

'Given this, how can the Department for Education have now allowed this proposal to pass through to the interview stage?

'‘The creep of creationism into the English education system remains a serious concern, and the Department have a lot more work to do if they want to stop extremist groups from opening free schools.’

The Government has approved 35 free school applications to move to the business case and plan stage, and eight of these have been given the go ahead to move into the pre-opening stage.
 

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