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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 04:18 pm
@farmerman,
I'm in good company then. Spengler said it too. So did Bertrand Russell. It's just technology from now on.

But there's social science now and psychology. They are different. I know anti-IDers refuse to consider those.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 05:10 pm
@spendius,
I could believe Spengler, he was rather unimaginative, however, Bertie !! HMMM, can you provide a clip of in what circumstances he said that?

"Its all technology from here" is a super mindless statement.Like the trip to the moon, "Well I thought it up, all thats left to do, is to do it" I believe that was Jules Verne. How much of an cartoonist he was.
The statement actually delimits the unimaginative mind . Something that Thompson always showed himselof to be when he discounted Darwin by hizzown computations of the age of the earth.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 05:59 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I could believe Spengler, he was rather unimaginative, however, Bertie !! HMMM, can you provide a clip of in what circumstances he said that?


Well obviously Spengler would be "unimaginative" to you effemm. It goes without saying. I think, if memory serves, that the "Permant Erection" was talking about the difficulties of understanding how his tea-cup didn't go through the table seeing as how the table was 99.999rec% space. I'll admit he was probably giddy at the time due to the contemplation of how intelligent he was.

I don't know much about Lord Kelvin and the PE actually. But Spengler is astounding. Such a delicate sensibility I thought. Fancy predicting Mr Spitzer's peccadilloes so far ahead when they were unheard of at the time.
And this credit crunch. That's impressive don't you think.

I bought into gold at $320 after reading old Ossie.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 06:01 pm
@spendius,
spendi, Now's a good time to sell your gold; you would triple your money. Greed is what gets most people into trouble. How many ounces did you buy?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 06:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I don't know actually ci. I've forgotten. You don't think I have them in a belt around my waist like Rimbuad did do you? I'm not that daft.

I think I'll hold on for a bit longer though. I don't care for the look of things. The President last night sounded like a football coach trying to jolly up his team at half time after a first half battering. I thought the Veep clapped just a wee bit too spontaneously. Cheer leading like that really requires a short pleated skirt and wrist tassles and an up-beat rocker on the tannoy of the "can I **** you now?" genre.

The financial system has been taken into public ownership in case you don't know. Some 3 tour vets who were saving for their kid's education have had their savings wasted and been repossessed and one banker here has signed himself off with a life pension of £650K a year for life. Another blew £47K on a night out. Hubris stays hubris until nemesis arrives. Solid Darwinians the lot. Not a Christian principle between them.

Even your heroic pilot expressed his disgust.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 06:34 pm
Science in action from another thread--

Quote:
The dumbest thing we had happen was our local elementary school added a large organic, community garden for the kids to grow their own salad greens and veggies. When produce was ready the school cafeteria refused to use it because it was not inspected by the Health Dept.
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 03:12 am
@spendius,
And again you reveal your utter distaste for science, despite your hilarious ignorance of it. So, shall we assume you're a coward, as you haven't started a thread to make your coherent, cogent argument? I feel like I'm asking you to tie your shoes here.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 05:26 am
@Shirakawasuna,
I can say for sure that I have never tied my shoes in my entire life.

I have no distaste for science either. It is the closet Christians such as yourself who manipulate the subject without any knowledge of it who I find to be a bit distasteful.

Nobody with a proper scientific cast of mind would write in their own language in the manner you have displayed there.

You are perfectly free to assume anything you like.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 05:42 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Science in action from another thread--

Quote:
The dumbest thing we had happen was our local elementary school added a large organic, community garden for the kids to grow their own salad greens and veggies. When produce was ready the school cafeteria refused to use it because it was not inspected by the Health Dept



Obviously science produces bounty and the Vogon beurocrats cannot handle it. Whats yer point?
Science isnt to blame, community "order" is.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 06:03 am
@farmerman,
I know effemm. I was only having a bit of a laugh. It's a technique you lot use as Frank discovered.

It hinted that "Vogon beurocrats" might reach higher up the social spectrum that some people like to imagine. There's nothing like some psuedo-science to empower the traffic warden mentality which is more common than it really ought to be.

Some of them can get quite carried away with it.

I suppose the cafeteria refused to serve the stuff on the "watch your back" principle.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 06:12 am
@spendius,
Its just humanity imperatives. One is given some bit of authority and one immediately begins to test its limits. These guys in the school cafeteria ust want to be noticed as an "important" cog, thats all.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 07:47 am
@farmerman,
It can't be a humanity imperitive. Loads of people are not like that. Buddhists say. Wankers. Skivers. Tossers. Hippies.

It's a socialisation imperitive as is its opposite. I can see that teaching evolution would tend to inculcate it and Christian teaching to inhibit it. Journalists have it bad in my experience. Especially female ones.

When journalists start embracing science it's obvious science is at the end of its tether. Modern science is inaccesible to the profanum vulgus of newspaper readers who haven't the faintest inkling just as they haven't with the higher politics, art and theology. Pop science is without value and falsified to flatter. Detraquee the French say.

As Spengler says--" Indeed, we may take the craving for wide effect as a sufficient index by itself of the commencing and already perceptible decline of Western science". (1926).

If everybody was a first class footballer then football would be in decline. When people who write with Shira's vocabulary and the journalists (sic) wande quotes are speaking up for science it is time to draw the curtains and slink off shucksing. They are not even journalists.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 09:42 am
IOWA UPDATE
Quote:
Iowa educators respond to evolution bill
(By Kathy Hanson, Ames Tribune, February 25, 2009)

Some representatives from Iowa’s regent universities are calling for the state Legislature to kill HF 183, “The Evolution Academic Freedom Act,” introduced Feb. 3 by Rep. Rod Roberts, R-Carroll.

A statement released Tuesday includes a petition with more than 200 signatures by faculty opposing HF 183 from Iowa State University, the University of Iowa and the University of Northern Iowa, as well as from 17 other Iowa universities, colleges and community colleges, seven primary and secondary schools, and three research organizations.

The statement was written by Hector Avalos, ISU professor of religious studies; James W. Demastes, UI associate professor of biology; and Tara C. Smith, UI assistant professor of epidemiology.

According to the statement, HF 183 is one of many “academic freedom” bills that have been introduced in the last year that are sponsored and supported by the Discovery Institute, a “Seattle-based anti-evolution organization.” Similar bills have been introduced in several states, including Alabama, Florida and Oklahoma. One such bill passed and was signed into law in Louisiana.

Robert Crowther Jr., Discovery Institute’s communications director, said the Discovery Institute has not been directly involved in writing HF 183 but thinks it is likely Roberts crafted the bill’s language along the lines of the institute’s “model legislation.”

“That’s what we hoped would happen,” Crowther said. “We want anyone interested in furthering academic freedom to use our resources.”

Crowther said the Discovery Institute is often misrepresented as seeking to mandate teaching creationism or intelligent design.

“We simply want educators to be free to teach the strengths and weaknesses of the scientific theories involved in evolution,” he said.

HF 183 states that college and high school teachers “often suffer discrimination or punishment for questioning evolution.”

But Demastes, Smith and Avalos say state education departments have not found any cases of such discrimination, nor have the sponsors of these bills provided examples. A 2005 survey conducted by the National Science Teachers Association found that many teachers reported “significant community pressure to downplay or attack evolution.”

Demastes, Smith and Avalos say support for HF 183 comes from “mostly conservative religious groups,” such as the Iowa Christian Alliance, and not from “legitimate scientific or educational organizations,” such as the Iowa State Education Association and the Iowa Department of Education, which oppose HF 183.

Norman Pawlewski, representing the Christian Alliance and one of two state lobbyists registered in favor of HF 183, said, “Why shouldn’t teachers and students be able to decide among all the science-related information? God created science, after all.”

Clark Wolf, ISU director of bioethics, said it’s important to note that people on both sides of the issue want academic freedom. The key is determining “what is legitimate science,” he said. Educators have a responsibility protect the rights of all students, Wolf said, and it’s nearly impossible to teach intelligent design creationism outside a religious framework.

The Pennsylvania courts set a precedent when they concluded that intelligent design creationism is not science in the 2005 case Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, Wolf said.

“The court said teachers who present intelligent design creationism as if it were science are not simply doing their students a disservice,” Wolf said. “They are violating their rights.”

Michael Clough, ISU associate professor of science education in the department of curriculum and instruction, said there are no “rival theories” that stand up to the evidence for evolution. He calls HF 183 “unfortunate and misguided,” especially at a time when science education is increasingly important for solving issues of energy, climate and participating in the global information-age economy.

Clough said he believes evolution theory does not promote atheism and that there is “no conflict between science and religion.”

“It’s science’s job to look for natural explanations,” Clough said, and that science can’t make claims about a supernatural being.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 10:14 am
@wandeljw,
Right, it's science's job to look for natural explanations, not material explanations. End of case.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 12:38 pm
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
Right, it's science's job to look for natural explanations, not material explanations. End of case.


We are not discussing the task of science. It is not part of that task to dictate what kids will learn. Science is subservient to the political process not the master of it.

Why don't these people get into the classroom themselves instead of laying down the law to those that interview boards have selected to do that. They sound like they want automaton teachers. They are into leveraged control freakery without the sweat. They have a caricature of the kids and the classroom in mind.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 12:47 pm
@wandeljw,
Wandel's source wrote:
HF 183 states that college and high school teachers “often suffer discrimination or punishment for questioning evolution.”

But Demastes, Smith and Avalos say state education departments have not found any cases of such discrimination, nor have the sponsors of these bills provided examples. A 2005 survey conducted by the National Science Teachers Association found that many teachers reported “significant community pressure to downplay or attack evolution.”


This is the irony which escapes most casual readers. The science of evolution is under attack, but its opponents succeed in making it appear that religion is under attack by science.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 06:30 pm
@Setanta,
That's the sort of thing opponents do Set. Are you not up to speed on the strategies of opposing sides? Aaaaaahhh!
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 06:38 pm
@Setanta,
Oh-- I forgot to mention, the kettle was boiling and I had to shout for the maid, that casual readers probably didn't notice the subtle reverse invidious comparison you made and have been left with the false impression that you are not as casual in your reading as they are imputed to be.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 09:39 am
MICHAEL BEHE UPDATE
Quote:
Intelligent design speaker Behe draws packed house at UNCW
(By Amanda Greene, Wilmington Star-News, February 26, 2009)

“All of you attending this lecture tonight have just demonstrated the Darwinian principle of survival of the swiftest,” said Donald Furst, professor of art at the University of North Carolina Wilmington.

He was speaking to a packed crowd of about 300 who attended the Thursday night lecture “Answering Objections to the Argument for Intelligent Design in Biology” at UNCW by Lehigh University biochemistry professor Michael Behe.

About 30 people who could not find seats in the hall were turned away.

Furst invited Behe to speak at the university as his guest and as a counter-voice to other evolution speakers at the university this year as part of the university’s celebration of the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin’s birth and of the 150th anniversary of the publication of Darwin’s Origin of Species.

Behe, internationally recognized for his research about intelligent design or the belief that some parts of life are purposefully arranged by some intelligent source, is the author of “Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution.”

That book asserted his theory of irreducible complexity, where, “you’ve got some machine or system that is composed of different parts that work together to perform some function,” he said, “and if you’re missing some of the parts it doesn’t work anymore.”

An example?

Consider the mouse trap, he said. Without the spring, hammer, catch or holding bar, the mouse trap won’t work. The trap had to have an intelligent cause.

In the natural world, Behe gives the examples of bacterial flagellum and the cell. He says that because the flagellum and cell are complex minute biological machines, they couldn’t have evolved on their own through gradual change over millions of years with natural selection.

In short, Behe says much of life is too complex to be explained by random mutations.

Though Behe believes in evolution, he doesn’t believe natural selection is a satisfactory explanation of how species change. But the process of how intelligent design happens is also still unknown, he said.

Furst invited Behe as a guest speaker because he believed Behe would bring diversity of thought to evolution discussions on campus.

“I can see no better way to foster critical thinking than to examine a controversial topic, than to bring in major advocates of opposing views,” he said.

Behe has many objectors in the scientific community to his opinions including Kenneth Miller and Eugenie Scott, two previous UNCW speakers.

After the lecture, an audience member asked, “Where are the testable predictions in intelligent design that we would expect in science?”

“I don’t have a mechanism to substitute for the Darwinian mechanism, that’s true. But the same was true for Newton or the Big Bang Theory,” Behe answered. “I don’t think you need a mechanism all the time in science.”

Behe testified along with some of his detractors on their respective sides during the 2005 Dover, Pa., court decision that rejected teaching intelligent design in biology classes in the school system there. To illustrate the objections to his theories, Behe showed the judge’s written opinion from the trial and pointed out that the judge had used phrases from the lawyer for the plaintiff’s briefs in his ruling.

“It wasn’t the judge’s opinion. He showed no independent thought,” Behe added. “If you want to understand this (the debate about evolution), you can’t rely on somebody else, you’ve got to look at it yourself and come to your own conclusion.”
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 10:38 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Behe, internationally recognized for his research about intelligent design or the belief that some parts of life are purposefully arranged by some intelligent source,


I defy anyone to identify one piece of reearch on ID. Everything he does is based upon beliefs and not one piece of evidence. ANYONE care to refute?
 

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