61
   

Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 10:16 am
@wandeljw,
wandel, It's no different than wars; neither side ever wins, but we continue to kill each other for the most stupid reasons.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 01:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Like what stupid reasons?
0 Replies
 
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 04:59 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Show me. Anybody can make stuff like that up.


And what, quote pages of you blathering on? Find the 'intelligent design' thread that's 1000 pages long. The last time I had any interaction with you, it had to do with this. I issued you a challenge, which you implicitly took by trying to make some rather stupid arguments and ranting on about the "evolutionary point of view", which was never really explained.

The basic point is that only one 'side' on this issue has ever shown a propensity for cowardice, and it ain't that of the pro-science guys. Yes, that would be people other than yourself, given your intellectual hard-on for the Appeal to Consequences.

Hey, if you want to make a coherent and cogent argument concerning the consequences of evolutionary theory and/or teaching it, you go right ahead and start a thread. I'll gladly join in. So far every time you've made anything approaching a coherent statement on the topic with any real substance, you've exposed what a poor understanding of it you have. Queue your inevitable rationalizations for that perceived slight.
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 05:02 pm
@Muarck,
Muarck wrote:

But who really cares? So the kids aren't believing in evolution. Give them their space. Maybe they want to believe in God, or maybe a perpetual universe, or that humans are a civilization seeded by aliens. It's their right and possibly it's even a need. We believe what gives us comfort. Seriously, give them space.


Because it violates the basic premise of education and would entail lies of omission? If those kids want to believe in that stuff and merely willing yourself to believe is enough then they should be able to withstand being presented with the scientific conclusions taken from basic observational reality.

And like the others said, the current issue is dealing with an overt attempt to confuse public schoolkids with religious whackjobbery. It's tough to see how opposing the deliberate insertion of nonsense is antithetical to giving them 'space'.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 06:58 pm
@Shirakawasuna,
Quote:
The basic point is that only one 'side' on this issue has ever shown a propensity for cowardice, and it ain't that of the pro-science guys. Yes, that would be people other than yourself, given your intellectual hard-on for the Appeal to Consequences.


Bugger off you silly sod. Most of them have me on Ignore because they are frightened of discussing the social consequences of having no morality. They ran off waving a white flag. Have you not been keeping up.

And don't call them "guys". They are little girls. Hiding, as you do, behind assertions. Guys come out and fight their corner. The Ignore function is not known as the Mom's apron for nothing.

Do you do air guitar Shira and gyrate your hips when you see a pretty woman.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 08:03 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Most of them have me on Ignore because they are frightened of discussing the social consequences of having no morality.


Creating fictions to instill morality just ain't that grand a plan, Spendi.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 12:54 am
@JTT,
spendi has delusions of sainthood; all as a consequence of his religious beliefs.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 05:35 am
@JTT,
Quote:
Creating fictions to instill morality just ain't that grand a plan, Spendi.


There's no alternative. Things ain't so simple as these scientific apologists would have us believe. They peek at one thing at once and forget all about the big picture.

" The truth is obscure, too profound and too pure, to live it you have to explode." "There are no truths outside the Gates of Eden."

None of these anti-IDers live the truth. Miles away. They are peddling lies and partial truths that are as bad as lies. They should get on with their science which we are all in favour of and leave education to elected people.
Their whole position is based on the assumption that the electorate is stupid and in need of their guidance and on there being no different traditions and economic circumstances in different areas of the country. They want to make us all the same and nice little copies of themselves. A very important principle of governance in large unions is "subsidiarity". What right does somebody from a north-east state have to tell southerners what to teach their kids and to insult them if they don't?

The scientists have just announced that eggs are good for us after years of telling us that they are bad for us.

Do you think dietary advice in biology lessons is based on truth? It is based on food industry lobbying.



edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 05:35 am
Spendi thinks that if you are honest about science you have no morality. I personally have been hoaxed by more self professed religious persons than any other kind.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 06:21 am
@edgarblythe,
If there is only science the word "morality" is an anachronism. Morality has no purpose if it is not for inhibiting natural urges. What has science to say about natural urges other than to accept them as facts. It ought to encourage their expression on the grounds that inhibition of them is physiologically risky.

Are we to base the education of 50 million kids on your experience Ed?

Why is there this determination to force evolution into classrooms? What does it have to do with the biology of existing forms at that level of education? For sure it is of some use to a small minority of specialists but there is no difficulty in them dealing with it in university departments.

Look around you. How many of the people you see needed to be taught this highly controversial subject. Proper diet is far more important to them. So is how their body works.

I think there is a political agenda.

Without this campaign the creationists might not be so active.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 12:37 pm
Quote:
Missing Links in Darwin Day Poll
(David Waters, The Washington Post, February 10, 2009)

A new poll just in time for Darwin's 200th birthday (Feb. 12) claims that even liberals support the idea that students need to hear "both sides" of Darwin's Theory of Evolution -- the "strengths and weakness" -- and therefore would support so called "academic freedom" legislation that requires science classrooms be open to all views of creation.

"We need to change Darwin Day to Academic Freedom Day because just when Darwinists are celebrating evolution's triumph, this poll shows that they have been losing the public debate over whether students need to hear both sides," said Dr. John West, senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, which commissioned the Zogby poll.

Well, not quite. The poll does show that the Discovery Institute continues to find new and creative ways to advance the cause of intelligent design.

The Discovery Institute is a conservative think tank whose own stated goals are to "replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God" and "to see intelligent design theory as the dominant theory in science."

The Institute has provided the template that is being used by state legislators across the country to file "academic freedom" bills that either encourage or require public school science teachers to describe evolution as controversial and explain purported flaws in the theory -- evolution's "strength and weaknesses." Ostensibly, this "academic freedom" would also allow for instruction in intelligent design.

So far this year, "academic freedom" bills have been introduced by legislators in Alabama, Iowa, New Mexico, Mississippi and Oklahoma. In recent years, legislators also have tried in Michigan, Missouri and Florida. So far, only Louisiana has enacted the legislation. Next month, the Texas State Board of Education will vote whether to require science textbooks to include the "strengths and weaknesses" approach to teaching evolution.

The Discovery Institute calls it "teaching the controversy" -- a tactic they turned to after U.S. Dist. Judge John Jones's 2005 ruling barred a (Dover) Pennsylvania public school district from teaching "intelligent design" in biology class. Jones cited "overwhelming evidence" that intelligent design "is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory." The ruling was seen by many as a major setback for the intelligent design movement.

Not so, the Institute claims, offering the new Darwin Day poll as proof that "support for the Darwinists' position has dropped significantly while support for teaching the controversy over evolution has risen."

Depends how you ask the question. Here's the way the Zogby poll phrased the question:

QUESTION: I am going to read you two statements about Biology teachers teaching Darwin's theory of evolution. Please tell me which statement comes closest to your own point of view -- Statement A or Statement B?

Statement A: Biology teachers should teach only Darwin's theory of evolution and the scientific evidence that supports it.

Statement B: Biology teachers should teach Darwin's theory of evolution, but also the scientific evidence against it.

Most of the 1,053 people who were polled (78 percent) chose B. Strangely, Democrats (82%) and liberals (86%) were even more likely than Republicans (73%) and conservatives (72%) to choose B. Those results should give pause to any conservative think tank trying to make a point.

I got better grades in physics than biology, so I asked an expert on the subject what he thought of the poll.

"It is indeed a stupid poll," Dr. Richard Dawkins, the famous evolutionary biologist (and On Faith panelist) told me in an email. "Actually I think I'd say a dishonest poll -- because the QUESTION PRESUMES that there is scientific evidence against evolution. Of course, if we have a theory where there is evidence for and against, it would be ridiculous to teach only the evidence in favour.

"Now, if there really is evidence against evolution, the Discovery Institute should go into the laboratory, or the field, and find it, and publish it in the scientific journals. Instead, they mislead the public, by phrasing a question which presumes that there is evidence against."

Perhaps those who responded to the Institute's poll should have given a third option:

Statement C: Biology teachers should teach the theory of evolution, but also creationism, intelligent design and other religious views of how life began.

Personally, I'd ask this question: Do we want biology teachers to teach science or religion or both?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 01:31 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
There's no alternative. Things ain't so simple as these scientific apologists would have us believe. They peek at one thing at once and forget all about the big picture.

" The truth is obscure, too profound and too pure, to live it you have to explode." "There are no truths outside the Gates of Eden."

None of these anti-IDers live the truth. Miles away. They are peddling lies and partial truths that are as bad as lies. They should get on with their science which we are all in favour of and leave education to elected people.


Spendi, you jump all over anti-IDers for lying and peddling partial truths but you start out by stating that lying is the only way to instill morality.

A grand summary of religion.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 02:33 pm
@JTT,
It's as if there are no history behind religous' countries and their crime rates - not to mention and crusades and the inquisition. Morality? LOL
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 02:48 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Quote:
Missing Links in Darwin Day Poll
(David Waters, The Washington Post, February 10, 2009)

The Discovery Institute is a conservative think tank whose own stated goals are to "replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God"

And not only that, but a PARTICULAR God. They'll be letting us know which one we'll be believing in later... stay tuned.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 03:08 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
"It is indeed a stupid poll," Dr. Richard Dawkins, the famous evolutionary biologist (and On Faith panelist) told me in an email. "Actually I think I'd say a dishonest poll -- because the QUESTION PRESUMES that there is scientific evidence against evolution. Of course, if we have a theory where there is evidence for and against, it would be ridiculous to teach only the evidence in favour.


"It is indeed a stupid poll" is an assertion and "indeed" is un-necessary and a solecism.

"Actually I think I'd say a dishonest poll." That is ridiculous. In writing. What on earth does "actually" mean. And "I think I'd say" is silly. And "dishonest" is an assertion.

He seeks to give the impression that Dr West, who I assume has been educated in an American institution of higher learning, The Discovery Institute and the Zogby organisation are a bunch of conspiratorial, lying, cheating bastards but "actually" he only "thinks" he would say that and then he says it.

The guy can't even write in his native tongue. His tongue is probably exhausted.

There is scientific evidence against evolution by natural selection. There's the problem of drones in insect colonies which can only be explained by socio-biology and if we go into that subject we need to apply it to human societies as well. Then what to teach in schools transcends the narrow dimensions of anti-IDer's banalities and reaches deep into social consequences debates, which are political.

There's also the problem that there are, and have been, more species existing than it is possible to count and choosing a tiny, infinitessimal even, fraction of examples to prove a point is a piece of cake especially when the ones making the point, and some money, are doing the choosing. If one chose all the yellow star shaped Dolly Mixture components and ignored the rest you could seem to prove that all Dolly Mixture components were star shaped and yellow. Or, by organising exams in such a way that children from large houses did better than ones from trailer-trash parks you could seem to prove that the former are superior evolutionary specimens and therefore should become the ruling elite. That's how to end up with a ruling elite with an average IQ of 100. As seems to be the case.

There's also the problem that it is the sperm and the egg which carry the material of inheritance and those are not necessarily subject to environmental changes of the easy to understand type so beloved of our anti-IDers.

A mutation giving a long neck would prosper by being able to reach a food source others couldn't. And thus reproduce more. The idea that the long neck developed in order to reach this food is saying that acquired characteristics are inheritable. And one might expect such a theory from a well-to-do English gentleman of the Manchester industrial school of thought. Him having inherited superior genes, a sick joke actually, would justify his relations exploiting lower life forms in the factories in order to live a self indulgent life on their backs. Darwin did spend a lot of time in the company of working class pigeon fanciers. "I am hand & glove with all sorts of Fanciers, Spital-field weavers & all sorts of odd specimens of the Human species", he wrote.

I should imagine the prosecution at Dover flattered the good judge in regard to such matters.

The sperm and the egg are separated from the body and are not subject to weather patterns or tectonic movements in any simple way. They constitute a separate lineage. Possibly influenced by astrological events.

And the gaps in the fossil record are explained by the record being "imperfect" which is another way of saying there are gaps in it.

There are scientific questions relating to Darwin's theory. Not all of them suitable for public discussion.











0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 03:30 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
but you start out by stating that lying is the only way to instill morality.


Well--it is. We cannot stand the bare-assed naked truth. And there is the difference between education, propaganda, socialization, manipulation, brainwashing.and indoctrination to consider.

Only a very strict definition of education embraces no lies and it is hardly suitable for the masses. The rest are quite normal in all societies in varying degrees of emphasis.

But are they lies when the teacher believes them as well and thinks them true. One can teach lies knowing them to be false. As in most advertising and media editorialising.

Are not interviews for teaching posts seeking people who believe certain things the educational system wishes to instill in students. If they choose people who believe certain things are those people telling lies when they teach them.

I think you are being too abstract JT in order to make yourself look good. It's a real world of concrete facts out there and the purveyor of the Naked Lunch is not very popular and maybe not very useful.


JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 03:39 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Well--it is. We cannot stand the bare-assed naked truth.


And therein lies the foundation for, Intelligent Design.

Some of us we's can stand the bare-assed naked truth, Spendi, in fact, some of us actually demand it.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 04:32 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Some of us we's can stand the bare-assed naked truth, Spendi, in fact, some of us actually demand it.


That's easy to say. And even if it is true "some of us" is not all of us. I could test it for you but this is not the place to do it. I think it is bravado and an attempt to portray yourself as a tough cookie.

It is available to you if you read the right stuff in the right way. I once ordered a book from the British Library and I received a letter asking me where I had heard of it? They did send it though.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 04:47 pm
@spendius,
Please stop trying to make this about me, Spendi. I'm certainly not perfect. But to propagate such a notion as an ideal is more than a bit silly, wouldn't you say?

Though we may not always live up to the ideals, it's best not to abandon them.

That's precisely what ID is doing, nothing more and nothing less.



0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 05:07 pm
@spendius,
spendi, Here's a clue for you; it's never "all of us." There is one exception; we are all humans.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.09 seconds on 10/05/2024 at 08:26:07