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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2011 08:13 pm
@tenderfoot,
Yes this can be seen as a immoral act to those who are not of the church but with just a little faith and with no use of the scientific method of ethics you can twist this into a delightfull event!
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 03:31 am
@tenderfoot,
Is your criticism directed at Jews circa 900 BC because I dont see how it is relevant to modern Christianity. But if I see any, I will be sure to pass on your concerns.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 07:16 am
@tenderfoot,
If that's all you have tf you are conceding the argument.

Shakespeare fled back to Stratford for fear that one of his lines might be misunderstood and cause him to be divided into pieces.

Don't you think that your story shows that somebody ought to get a grip of the human race and save it from itself even if it did take a lot more than a magic wand to do it.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 07:46 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
Spendius I do not mind saying that it is a good thing that the catholic curch can find at times that the scientific method is the best that we have at this time and I commend them for that. I think that this is very important that they can see this.


I hope the Church is over the moon with joy at your approval rl.

Have you thought that it might well have been using the scientific method all along but applied to a rather more difficult manifestation than inert matter and lower animal life. If you think a vague understanding of the latter gives you an expert understanding of the management of civilisations you are up a gum tree with a gilt edged mirror from the toilette for company.

You sound as though you think the electricity supply to your house was washed up on the shore along with the house itself, the roads around it and your ability to wander where you will unmolested. That, and all the rest, having no cause, like the Big Bang.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 09:52 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Kids are indestructible. Evolution can't touch them but 8 grades exposed to the necessary intellectual environment required for teaching it is possibly a danger to some of them.
Why do you say that?

More kids have been damaged by 8 years of religion than 8 years of education that includes evolution.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 11:58 am
@parados,
Using your definition of "damage". The other side is at liberty to say the opposite unless only anti-IDers are free to define words to their own satisfaction. As, of course, they are. And regularly do. Science being the main one.

If they get teaching evolution it will the Peyton Place ladies' coffee morning version. Evolution without reproduction.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 12:00 pm
@spendius,
The Amish are a pretty extreme religion and fm is buying his veggie seeds off them in preference to what he must consider damaged seeds produced scientifically with no religious input.
0 Replies
 
tenderfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 05:07 pm
Quote --Is your criticism directed at Jews circa 900 BC because I dont see how it is relevant to modern Christianity. But if I see any, I will be sure to pass on your concerns... Unquote.

Ionarse.
Your "don't see " is so revealing, glad to see you think a major part of your fairy tale book is irreverent, you know the bit that your fairy Jesus said was completely reverent. If you do happen to agree with with what old Jesus and I think.... Don't pass it on , as all of your particular mob "don't see",

Quote -- The Amish are a pretty extreme religion and fm is buying his veggie seeds off them in preference to what he must consider damaged seeds produced scientifically with no religious input... Unquote

Spediosus
The Christian religion is a extreme religion that bought it's veggie seed from the original Amish version and the damaged seed main production was the thing they called the bible that was all truth and the word of their god...... He, he, he. He .
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 06:06 pm
@tenderfoot,
Quote:
glad to see you think a major part of your fairy tale book is irreverent
Are you saying it is my fairy tale book ? I didnt write it.
Quote:
glad to see you think a major part of your fairy tale book is irreverent,
No, I said I didn't see how it was relevant.

At some stage do you plan on making sense or are all your posts to be written in grade two level ? Have you had a serious head injury sometime ?
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 06:22 pm
@spendius,
Spendius I was not trying to come across as hateful, I was only sharing a point of view! whether or not it was correct, I am not sure as I am no absolutist.

Most every thing that I learn comes from others such as yourself and I find that you all disagree with each other so often that some one has to be wrong and I think that I would also have to be wrong as well.

Many of you have such a high regard for the church as if it does not get things seriously wrong at times. I hear all kinds of excuses as how it supports all of science and the so forth but I have found threw my observation that this is not the case.
The biggest problem that I see is," that we are not able to advance more quickly in the field of ethics.
I think that it maybe because we still have the money changers in the church, I guess that there is nothing new under the sun.

Ps. Do you know why kepler's mother was burnt at the stake?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lfmRqT-B_c
tenderfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 06:32 pm
Ionarse, about me.
Born in London, Left school at 13 in the middle 2nd world war,apprentice till 15, migrated to Australia, worked for wages till 18, Started last company at 33, retired at 66, 3 son's now run it....... First puter at 67, joined abuzz. And no I have not had a head injury but did land on it once when whilst dirt bike racing with my son's. No, I'm not overly intelligent, yes I am finding old age memory problems and perhaps I do sound like a two year old.................. But I think you get my drift and fully understand what I'm getting at ,unless of course you are a two year old as well.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 11:16 pm
@tenderfoot,
Quote:
Quote -- The Amish are a pretty extreme religion and fm is buying his veggie seeds off them in preference to what he must consider damaged seeds produced scientifically with no religious input... Unquote
I assume that this is a spendi quote. Hes never let pure ignorance of any topic interfere with what he considers a valid opinion.
His train of thought (if indeed it is thought) always wanders all over and rarely has a point. (Besides being incorrect ).
My statement about buying seeds from Amish growers (who are excellent and modern practitioners of plant propogation), was based upon needing tomato plants that were NOT affected by early blight and bluestem viral diseases. All tomato plants imported from Georgia growers in that particular year and shipped to the Northeast "big box stores" like Home Depot or Walmart, were infected with viral diseases and early growers were losing tomatoes like crazy.
The Amish buy seed from certified seed houses and propogate their own plants. They grow for theior own truck farms and sell the excess to the local home gardners. All these plants were disease free. Nothing to do with religion or "severity of sects" (which is also a bullshit statement because, with respect to ag practices the Amish are modern and are only constrained by how they deliver their efforts in the fields, theypractice plant genetics and invest in integrated management systems and very modern computerized dairy equipment . How the hell spendi formulates the fantasy he spouts is always worth a laugh.

Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 11:25 pm
@tenderfoot,
tenderhead

Religion is not the fault of an individual. As you are an atheist no doubt you will be taking responsibility for all atheists. Murderers and rapists everyone of them, who believe a space craft will come to save them. It is no good saying you dont believe that, because those are what some atheists believe and you are all the same.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 06:18 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
Ps. Do you know why kepler's mother was burnt at the stake?


According to Arthur Koestler's book The Sleepwalkers she was in that danger but escaped it with her son's help. She was released after 14 months in prison and died six months later. She was over 70.

It is ridiculous to keep going on about "advancing" in the field of ethics without offering some ideas about the direction of the advance which add up to more than a few trite sentimental platitudes or guidance on how it is to be done.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 06:30 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
How the hell spendi formulates the fantasy he spouts is always worth a laugh.


With laughs being so hard to come by in this weary world of woe and them being so beneficial and all (see Rabelais) it is inexplicable that fm has me on Ignore when my posts are "always worth a laugh."

His defence is fatuous. I offered my thoughts on the matter in relation to the consequences of religious or scientific attitudes. He chose the products of a religious community. Not me.

And his buying of the Amish products must, to some extent, help promote the religious agenda the Amish have and which I know he admires.

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 06:35 am
@reasoning logic,
Actually Keplers mothers aunt was burnt at the stake for witchcraft. Keplers mom was charged and there was a case that Johannes took to provide the defense. From The Galileo Project heres a bit re Keplers Biography:

Quote:
This Week in Odd History, Johannes Kepler’s elderly mother Katharina was arrested on suspicion of witchcraft in Leonberg, a charming little town in Baden-Württemberg, Germany.

Mrs. Kepler wasn’t the first member of the family to run into trouble with the witch-hunting authorities. She had been raised by an aunt who had herself been burned at the stake, and she dabbled in herbal concoctions she believed to be magical. Nor was she particularly well-liked (her own son described her as “small, thin, swarthy, gossiping and quarrelsome, of a bad disposition”). In 1615, one of Mrs. Kepler’s customers – a nasty piece of work named Ursula Reinbold, who’d fallen out with the Kepler family over a series of business transactions – accused the old lady of having poisoned her with a witch’s brew. Mrs. Kepler had had enough. She not only denied the charges (even when Mrs. Reinbold’s brother pressed a sword to her throat and demanded that she produce an antidote), she filed a libel suit against her accuser.

Mrs. Kepler was not the only woman accused of witchcraft in Leonberg (Lutherus Einhorn, who served as Vogt – something like a town bailiff – from 1613-1629, had 15 women arrested for witchcraft, and eight of them were executed for it), but she was the only one whose son was Imperial Mathematician to Rudolph II. Johannes Kepler spent the next several years mustering his considerable resources in his mother’s defense, commuting back to Leonberg from his home in Linz, hiring attorneys and making legal arguments on her behalf. Mrs. Reinbold, though, was not without political connections of her own – her brother was the court barber-surgeon to the prince of Württemberg.

In October 1619, Mrs. Reinbold upped the ante. Her family filed a counter-suit, demanding 1,000 florins for the sorcerous damage they insisted she’d caused Mrs. Reinbold. In lieu of evidence, their complaint was crammed full of local gossip: Mrs. Kepler could pass through locked doors without opening them; she’d once ridden a calf to death; she could kill babies by blessing them; she had killed her neighbors’ pets and livestock; she had asked the gravedigger for her father’s skull. (That last, it turns out, was true – she intended to have it set in silver as a gift for her son Johannes. She couldn’t see what the big deal was, though – she said she’d heard about the ancient custom of making drinking vessels from deceased relatives’ skulls in a sermon.)

In the face of these allegations, and the testimony of dozens of no-doubt-reliable witnesses, the duke finally agreed to bring criminal charges against Mrs. Kepler. On August 7, 1620, the authorities invaded the old lady’s home, bundled her into a large chest, and carried her off to jail in nearby Güglingen. At Johannes Kepler’s request, the trial was delayed until he could arrive to take charge of his mother’s defense. Meanwhile, the duke asked the judicial faculty at Tübingen (Johannes Kepler’s alma mater), to examine the evidence and decide whether the court might be allowed to torture the accused. The faculty (which included Christopher Besold, an old acquaintance of Johannes’), apparently not as impressed with these tales of dead cattle and silvered skulls as Mrs. Reinbold might have hoped, declined to allow torture, but did give the authorities permission to describe what she was missing. On September 28, 1621, the torturer of Güglingen spent several hours showing her his instruments, explaining how each of them was used, and exhorting her to confess. She refused. “Do with me what you want,” she said. “Even if you were to pull one vein after another out of my body, I would have nothing to admit.”

With no evidence and no confession, the duke had no choice but to let his prisoner go. She died of natural causes the following April, at the age of 75.


She was a feisty old broad as the story shows.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 07:19 am
@farmerman,
Which is, more or less, as Koestler has it. Pages 384-8 in the Hutchinson first edition of 1959.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 08:09 am
A new session has begun for the New Mexico state legislature. State representative Thomas Anderson has introduced "PROTECTION FROM CERTAIN SCIENTIFIC TOPICS" House Bill 302:

Quote:
AN ACT
RELATING TO PUBLIC EDUCATION; PROVIDING FOR PROTECTION OF TEACHERS AND STUDENTS REGARDING THE TEACHING OF CONTROVERSIAL SCIENTIFIC TOPICS.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO:

SECTION 1. A new section of the Public School Code is enacted to read:

"[NEW MATERIAL] TEACHING OF CONTROVERSIAL SCIENTIFIC TOPICS.--

A. The department, school district governing authorities and school administrators shall not prohibit any teacher, when a controversial scientific topic is being taught in accordance with adopted standards and curricula, from informing students about relevant scientific information regarding either the scientific strengths or scientific weaknesses pertaining to that topic. A teacher who chooses to provide such information shall be protected from reassignment, termination, discipline or other discrimination for doing so.

B. This section only protects the teaching of scientific information and specifically does not protect the promotion of any religion, religious doctrine or religious belief.

C. Public school teachers may hold students accountable for knowing and understanding material taught in accordance with adopted standards and curricula, but public school teachers shall not penalize a student in any way because that student subscribes to a particular position on the controversial scientific topic being taught.

D. For purposes of this section:

(1) "controversial scientific topic" includes biological origins, biological evolution, causes of climate change, human cloning and other scientific topics that are often viewed by society as controversial; and

(2) "scientific information" means information derived from observation, experimentation and analyses regarding various aspects of the natural world conducted to determine the nature of or principles behind the aspects being studied. "Scientific information" may include information that coincides or harmonizes with religious tenets, but does not include information derived from religious writings, beliefs or doctrines."
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 08:35 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
scientific topics that are often viewed by society as controversial
SO, If we cant push fantasy science and religion in the science classroom, we will see that you dont teach anything to anybody. Seems like spendi has been elected to the NM legislature
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 09:03 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
"Scientific information" may include information that coincides or harmonizes with religious tenets, but does not include information derived from religious writings, beliefs or doctrines."


But science itself, as we know it, is derived from religious writings, beliefs and doctrines. It must be said that with all those theologians spending all these years trying to put together a civilisation that doesn't end in tears, not nepotistically selected except for the odd backsliding, and peer-reviewed to the splitting of a gnat's testicle hair, sometimes with violence, there is the possibility that the religious writings, beliefs and doctrines themselves are scientific but only in that supreme of all the sciences, terribly easy to have on Ignore, which researches how to put a civilisation together which goes on and on until the universe decides that that's enough of that and fades it out, although not without being resisted.

In a less litigious nation the teacher is already protected, except in cases of exceptional provocation, by an informal system which is to a certain extent derived from local conditions.

That it is felt that teachers need the protections in the bill is a step in the direction of standardised teaching which is, thought of philosophically (taking the direction all the way for the purpose of orienting the mind) anti-evolutionary for reasons which even a half-wit evolutionist can understand. Un-American too I should have thought.

I saw a new SMART phone ad last night. The gist of it was that if you bought one you became smart. I suppose handing out easy to get certificates of excellence would come to that in the end. The certificates are assertions of course. We can't all be excellent. And making us all think we are has resulted in pub conversations not being worth listening to except those in the little knot of old codgers at the end of the bar who are the only ones the barmaids can aggravate with fleshy glimpses as they bend and stoop and reach. Some big pub chains have standardised barmaids with uniforms. It's like a red rag to a bull for me.
 

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