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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
rosborne979
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2010 01:50 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Brecheen says the religion of evolution is plagued with falsehoods
(by State Senator Josh Brecheen, Durant Daily Democrat, December 24, 2010)

There are other consequences to this misinformation. If Darwin is right then I am free to be the strongest by eating all in my way (forget “love thy neighbor”).

The religious love to claim that moral behavior derives from religion (their religion of course), but empathy and compassion are innate characteristics in most people, and societies have rules which dissuade people from becoming mass murderers even if the functionality of evolution were to be "revealed" to the masses (which is what this guy seems to be afraid of with his statement).

So this guy's implied claim that people will run amok and place selfish desires above altruism once they learn that evolution functions through natural selection (survival of the fittest) is also a bogus argument.

I have my doubts that basic human morality even derives from religion. I think it's more likely that religion derived it's morality from basic human emotions of compassion and empathy, not the other way around.
rosborne979
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2010 01:53 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

That was a very interesting piece, and a cogent dismissal of creationist tricks--but we do need to keep in mind that the creationist dog and pony show masters of ceremonies are not talking to us. They're talking to the gullible, want-to-believe-in-the-bible crew whose cumulative widow's mites make peddling creationism a very decent living.

It's really the same dog and pony show they've been running for thousands of years, it's just that they have a new "devil" to frighten the flock with (and to distract them while they pick their pockets).
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2010 01:55 pm
At the most basic level, small bands of humans would not have survived on the periglacial steppes without cooperation. It was in the best interest of the individual to perserve as many other individuals as possible, since a successful hunt, or the successful gathering of food in the brief period in which it was in season, required the efforts of the entire group.

We don't have the achaeological evidence to be sure, as we do with early modern man in the period of the "ice age," but i suspec that equation held true very far back in the history of hominids.

EDIT: The concept of "survival of the fittest," by the way, applies to species, not individuals. Any individual which survives is by definition fit--that doesn't mean they'll have a breeding opportunity and pass on their genetic make-up.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2010 04:36 pm
@Setanta,
The phylogenetic "Trees" are being studied by "back engineering" several species and seeing where theywould lie on an evolutionary train. Bird embryos hve had several genes turned off and on to see whether teeth or scales would develop from an embryo not fully advanced in "birdness" everal reptilian features have been shown in the oharyngula stages that "Recap" the lower orders . Humans , in the embryonic stage, maintain a cloaca, which is by week 16 converted into a gastro and urogenital system. Noone is saying that e will experiment with human embryos to reclaim the cloaca when the embryo goes to term.

As he says, ITS not Darwinian because Darwin had no idea of genes and their purposes. However both Darwin and modern evolutionary synthesis go to the same point.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2010 04:46 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Instead of quoting Macbeth, I would compare the state senator to a rooster standing on top of a dung pile and crowing loudly.

(that's from a German novel)


I feel sure it is considerably older than the German nation wande.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2010 05:06 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
and you must be awfully busy separating fly **** from pwepper flakes.


There is no fly **** around here fm.

Quote:
The only comedic act we have herein is YOU old dearie.


It's nice to know you can get something right.

Quote:
Everyone has been beaten to death with Sevnth grade English and the overall plotline of MAcbeth.


Oh no they haven't. They only think they have. They have been lied to.

Quote:
. However, as we mature we learn that, by the severability of tidbits of poesy we can often provide more impact to a common point>


Actually, as we mature, we give over adopting such cheapskate tactics and cease quoting literature we are not taking seriously.

Quote:
Unless you missed it, thats what ros did. He stated that(IN HIS CONTEXT), what Senator Brecheen stted was the "Tale told by an idiot".


How could anybody miss it. It was like a baby banging on a pan with Mom's baking spoon.

Quote:
Are you not familar with how many authors use previous segments and soliloquys in altogether different circumstances?


Sadly it is too familiar. That a lot of people do something does not make it respectable. Scientists have shown that men fart 35 times per day on average (women 30). And Mr Kinsey studied the popularity of certain practices.

Quote:
Surely you arent that uncreative in your recognition of the use of the English language. You and Dave seem to break the rulews all the time and want us to pat you on the back for it. Yet, in contrast, do you only afford those priviledges to yourselves?


It is not my prerogative to judge my own creativity. Who is Dave? Whoever he is I cannot speak for him but I would welcome an example of my having broken the rules. Or "seeming" to have done. And especially "all the time". And I certainly don't want, or expect, any pats on the back.

That post fm is incoherent. Take my word for it. I think you see the whole world as made of straw.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2010 05:34 pm
@wandeljw,
Mr Mysers should be aware wande that because "species within a phylum exhibit a remarkable degree of similarity to one another" does not imply that they are similar. That they look similar when he exhibits them is neither here nor there. He is guilty of a "sleazy sleight of hand". There are similarities but look one look at yourself in the mirror compared to a look at a bird or a reptile should prove to you that the similarity is superficial. The real similarity is that they are all made up of molecules in an irreducibly complex stew which is problem he has waved away. There are very similar looking seeds which grow into all sorts of different looking results.

He is trying to hide the fact that he has no data.

Quote:
It's the complexity of the subject that makes it both challenging and rewarding to solve.


He's thinking of the rewards if we employ his comparative and computational tools to solve, despite his understatement, "not the most tractable problem".

Quote:
they involve selection for intrinsic properties of networks of developmental genes that establish large scale properties of embryonic patterning


We all know that. It's just a fancy way of saying that what we see is what we get and hides the obvious vacuum about how and why. It's flannel.

Quote:
but extends it somewhat to include conservation of a kind of sophisticated, modular array of genes that work together to build the body plan. It's not just the alleles that matter, but the connections between them.


That's flannel as well---" a kind of sophisticated" --sheesh! Can you imagine any life form that is not a modular array of genes that work (not quite the right word really for a scientist--react would be better) together to build the body plan when the body is right before your very eyes and couldn't be there in any other way.

Bloody rubbish wande. Unscientific claptrap being sold to scientific illiterates is what that spiel is.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2010 05:41 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
The religious love to claim that moral behavior derives from religion (their religion of course), but empathy and compassion are innate characteristics in most people, and societies have rules which dissuade people from becoming mass murderers even if the functionality of evolution were to be "revealed" to the masses (which is what this guy seems to be afraid of with his statement).


A scientist would seek some experimental validation of that and would suggest suspending all laws for, say, one week.

ros must be a John Lennon fan.
0 Replies
 
tenderfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2010 06:15 pm
A correction to spaciousness rubbish, found in his garbage section.

"A creationist wouldn't seek some experimental validation of anything that would suggest suspending any biblical laws for, say, one millionth of a secound."

Spin diosus a fan. of his self.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2010 07:28 pm
@tenderfoot,
I ashould really peek at his posts more frequently. Neither would an IDer attempt to seek evidence that would deny their positions and beliefs .An Ider merely tries to bamboozl;e the audience with some presentation that hopes beyond all hope that science wont ever catch up upon. However, in all occasions science HAS caught up and the bamboozle is exposed not as something approaching science, but as something more of a travelling medicine show, complete with testimonials from the true believers.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 05:12 am
@farmerman,
I don't why you (and tf) bother "peeking" at my posts when neither of you have anything significant to say about them.

I only suggested a scientific test of ros's hypothesis. I can't see what objection you have to that. It would set aside the fear of the law as the explanation of human morality and allow "innate goodness" its week in the spotlight.

And if the IDer does seek to bamboozle the audience it is for the benefit of the audience that he does it and if it is bamboozled it is the audience who have chosen to be bamboozled no doubt from an awareness that it has the benefit intended. Just as we are all, well--nearly all- bamboozled into believing that Dec 25th is a special day and that the fourth Thursday in November is set aside (in the USA--it's the second Monday in October in Canada) to give thanks to a biological determinatant assuming a bountiful God is not in the frame.

AAMOI--In England it is generally the Sunday nearest the full moon that occurs closest to the autumn equinox (about Sept. 23). In two years out of three, the Harvest Moon comes in September, but in some years it occurs in October.

In atheist countries I imagine they show films on TV of bountiful harvesting to people who spend half their lives in bread queues accompanied by pictures of the Great Leader.

0 Replies
 
tenderfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 12:46 am

Spendiosus..... correction!.
In Roman Catholic countries they show films on TV of bountiful harvesting to people who spend half their lives in bread queues accompanied by pictures of their Great Leader and pedophile protector--- the pope.
So there -- don't go putting **** on the poor old atheist countrys where ever they are.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 06:36 am
@tenderfoot,
Philadelphia Inquirer celebrates the Kitzmiller v Dover Schoolboard Decision which was 5 years old on Dec 20, 2010

Quote:
The Philadelphia Inquirer (December 20, 2010) commemorated the fifth anniversary of the verdict in Kitzmiller v. Dover, the case establishing the unconstitutionality of teaching "intelligent design" in the public schools, with a review of the trial and its consequences. NCSE's executive director Eugenie C. Scott told the paper, "We're not fighting Dovers in every fifth school district in the country ... Dover seriously put the brakes on the intelligent-design movement." But as Michael Berkman, coauthor with Eric Plutzer of Evolution, Creationism, and the Battle to Control America's Classrooms (Cambridge University Press, 2010), explained, "the movement always adapts to the court cases and calls it something else."

As a case in point, Scott cited Louisiana, where creationist attacks on the treatment of evolution in biology — in the guise of calls for "critical analysis" — were recently rebuffed by the state board of elementary and secondary education. Kenneth R. Miller, a Supporter of NCSE who testified in the Kitzmiller trial, told the Inquirer that "the forms of 'critical analysis' promoted by the Louisiana Family Forum are actually a series of baseless arguments against evolution that have been repeatedly discredited by the scientific community." (Barbara Forrest reflects on the importance of the Kitzmiller case to the ongoing situation in Louisiana in a December 20, 2010, post on the Louisiana Coalition for Science's blog.)

"Evolution also suffers in the classroom, according to Berkman's survey, because many teachers are timid, may undermine the science, or may not present evolution thoroughly," the story explained, quoting Scott as observing, "Too many biology teachers skip evolution, give one lecture, or leave it till the end." Eric Rothschild, a Pepper Hamilton attorney who represented the plaintiffs in Kitzmiller, commented, "I often think about what would have happened if we hadn't won," adding, "We would have seen dozens, if not hundreds, of schools adopt intelligent design." Instead, the decision served to encourage teachers — like Dover's Jennifer Miller, according to the York Dispatch (December 17, 2010) — to present evolution without fear.





spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 08:38 am
@farmerman,
That's what we want fm--evolution presented "without fear". That's something none of you lot have dared to do. Your euphemisms are pathetic.

Would you be so kind as to give us the details of Ms Miller's presentation of evolution "without fear" so that we may see if the assertion that she had done such a thing stands up to critical analysis? Any plonker can say she had done it but expecting a bunch of cynics to roll over on the basis of the assertion is rather unscientific.

What did she say that causes you to believe so readily and to justify our believing in your belief? There's an obvious vacuum at the centre of your remarks which "according to the York Dispatch" does not sufficiently address.

I understand that the York Dispatch is owned by the MediaNews Group.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 10:12 am
KENTUCKY UPDATE
Quote:
A costly modern Ark
(Editorial, Louisville Courier-Journal, December 29, 2010)

Ark Encounter, the creationism theme park proposed for Northern Kentucky, looms as a more expensive proposition than state officials first suggested.

Gov. Steve Beshear enthusiastically endorsed — despite some objections and even groans — offering state tax incentives as an economic development spur to the park's developers on the grounds that the attraction will create jobs and draw tourists who will spend money in Kentucky. Since the incentive is in the form of rebates to the developers of sales taxes paid at the park by visitors, Mr. Beshear argued that the state would not be out any money if the park failed. (Actually, the state would be out taxes the park could collect before it went under, but who's counting?)

In any case, the developers now want the Transportation Cabinet to upgrade an Interstate 75 interchange in Grant County to accommodate the projected influx of visitors. There's no estimate yet of the price tag of the proposed improvements, but road construction to ease access to the Kentucky Speedway in Gallatin County cost the state about $45 million. The cabinet has not yet reviewed the request or made any commitments; the upcoming 2012 session of the legislature could reopen the state's road plan and add money for the project.

In addition, sooner or later someone is likely to want help building hotels, restaurants and service stations for park visitors. There are plenty of facilities closer to Cincinnati and Lexington, of course, but relatively little development near the 800 rural acres where the park is planned.

Meanwhile, the Governor and his aides insist that a state role in a park with a religious theme passes constitutional muster, and that there will be no religious discrimination in hiring employees at the park. In other words, if a gay Muslim with an advanced degree in evolutionary biology wants a top job at the park, he'll be welcomed by the creationists with open arms. Right? Hello?
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 11:51 am
@wandeljw,
No discrimination allowed! (Except for Muslims, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, and atheists.) Jews would be a toss-up.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 12:03 pm
@wandeljw,
Another Gannett Company Inc. mouthpiece.

Why do we want to know what Gannett think wande?

Would a "gay Muslim with an advanced degree in evolutionary biology" be welcomed with open arms in the McLean, Virginia headquarters of Gannett? Right? Hello?
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 12:12 pm
@spendius,
spendi, You have no idea how religion plays out in the US; why say something that only shows your ignorance? Christians continue to pursue their treatment of creationism to be taught in with our science courses; that should be a very simple clue to interpret.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 06:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I don't think they would if you lot would knock off wanting evolution taught to adolescents en masse. I was taught by priests and creationism never entered into any of the classes I experienced.

(I hope that my use of the word "priests" hasn't over-stimulated those here who like to discuss little boys being diddled. It wasn't my intention that it should.)

When are you going to give us the details of Ms Miller's presentation of evolution "without fear"? I'm agog for them. We are all hoping that the assertion of her fearless presentation isn't the only scientific evidence that she presented evolution "without fear". One might easily become Olympic Champion of every event using such a method of proof. Without any need to get out of bed.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Dec, 2010 06:49 am
This gives good evidence of our relationship to the ape, the last part shows some biology.


http://www.youtube.com/user/TVPchallenge#p/c/25A1C97C593A8FD1/6/Vg4AjD1fUaw
0 Replies
 
 

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