Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

@eurocelticyankee,

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So everybody who takes part in a war is a fundamentalist

No, I am not saying that. I am saying the complete massacre of several towns, Antioch and Jerusalem being the main ones, and the killing of people because they were Muslim, especially in the Reconquista of Spain, promoted Christian AND Muslim fundamentalism.

The Mongol invasion promoted fundamentalism by destroying centres of scientific learning.

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So what your saying is if somebody invades your land, I.E, like the crusaders or the Mongol's and you fight back, your a fundamentalist. Is that right.?

No, that's wrong.

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@Ionus,

And in truth isn't every religion formed with fundamentalist thinking at it's core, all of them believe theirs is the true religion, don't they.
So that's fundamentally fundamentalist.

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@Ionus,

Well done Io. Getting a fellow anti-IDer off the hook again is certainly a noble aim. And him getting in his falsehood about me being pissed again is a bonus.

Anyway--one for the Constitution botherers and Founding Fathers Fundies.

Thomas Jefferson wrote-

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The writings of Sterne, particularly, form the best course of morality that ever was written.

And he most surely have read the Gospels.

So why is Sterne more or less unknown in the US? Does the US reject " the best course of morality that ever was written" for a reason? Are anti-IDers picking and choosing from Mr Jefferson's menu of words? Rejecting Sterne and the Gospels must mean the US is on second best courses of morality.

Sterne, like Rabelais, was a minister of religion. And Cervantes, Sterne's other literary hero, had lost a hand in battle.

I'm sorry that my last post has seemingly caught anti-IDers at a busy time and we all understand why they are unable to provide a response under such circumstances.

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@eurocelticyankee,

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And in truth isn't every religion formed with fundamentalist thinking at it's core, all of them believe theirs is the true religion, don't they.
So that's fundamentally fundamentalist.

Not so. Most religions started with broad definitions and a very egalitarian nature.....fundamentalism usually has a specific cause that attacks the core of the religion as much as it attacks outsiders. Belligerance and violence are not religious values.

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@spendius,

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Getting a fellow anti-IDer off the hook again is certainly a noble aim.

Now Spendi...you agreed we should see other people.....anyway I have never made any secret of my believe that evolution theory is fundamentally sound...I just disagree with the attitude that it does not have areas that need inproving and I do not regard it as a fact. To me, facts are easily demonstrable and are the constituents of theory...theories are too complex to ever be considered facts because they rely so heavily on the latest knowledge and that changes.

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So why is Sterne more or less unknown in the US?

Why do you say he is unknown ?

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@Ionus,

Yeah, that might be the case when a religion first forms, idealistic and pure, but as soon as it begins to gather pace and become stronger it's egalitarian views soon fall by the wayside in it's pursuit of more converts and more power.
And what's more fundamental than believing yours is the one and only true religion. Which you have to do.

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@eurocelticyankee,

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And what's more fundamental than believing yours is the one and only true religion. Which you have to do.

Fundamentalists have to believe that.....

But true religion says acceptance of others and tolerance is essential to the soul. And that is true of all religions. Religion has surprisingly common core beliefs, it is churches that emphasise differences.

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@Ionus,

Then why believe in your religion at all. For instance why believe in Christ if you think, even for the sake of tolerance, that somebody who believes in Buddha could be right.

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@Ionus,

I didn't say Sterne was unknown. I am well aware of John Traugott's Tristram Shandy's World: Sterne's Philosophical Rhetoric published by Berkeley and Los Angeles ; University of California Press. 1954.

I said "more or less unknown". You are getting the hang of anti-ID goodstyle Io.

The point was that despite Mr Jefferson providing such a pointed and dramatic guide Sterne's wonderful book is kept away from US educational practice.

"Look out kid, they keep it all hid." Bob Dylan.

And anti-IDers being so militant about openess and truth and all that blarney. You're in with a gang of liars and hypocrites Io. And science and evolution have nothing to do with their hidden agenda.

I wouldn't waste my time on any book fm recommended on the grounds that if he can understand it it must be worthless and that reading it might get me into the state he's in.

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@eurocelticyankee,

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Then why believe in your religion at all.

I am not religious (I wish I had a dollar for everytime I had to say that). Churches are groups of people led by people and they are culture based. No-one likes all cultures. Most people only like their own culture.

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why believe in Christ if you think, even for the sake of tolerance, that somebody who believes in Buddha could be right.

The point is no-one is right so it is easy to say those who believe in another church are wrong. They are wrong but so is everyone. Religion is above culture in its ideals. Churches are a molasses of culture and are so full of rubbish as to make it easy to poke fun at them. Look at the Atheist thread for example.

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@spendius,

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You are getting the hang of anti-ID goodstyle

But I have always been an anti-IDer. Why wouldnt I have the hang of it ?

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You're in with a gang of liars and hypocrites

I'm not in with anyone. I think I have amply demonstrated my independant thinking.

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I wouldn't waste my time on any book fm recommended on the grounds that if he can understand it it must be worthless and that reading it might get me into the state he's in.

I on the other hand am not frightened by any book or thoughts. The more thoughts the merrier.

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@Ionus,

I didn't mean you specifically.

Anyhow that's why I try not to get involved in these type of debates because you just go round in circles and end up back where you started.
All that's left is two diametrically opposed views and a lot of hot air.

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@eurocelticyankee,

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I didn't mean you specifically.

I thought I should explain that because several have started abusing me for being religious !!??

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All that's left is two diametrically opposed views and a lot of hot air.

I thought we were heading towards common ground.....ah well...

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@Ionus,

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I thought we were heading towards common ground.....ah well.

.

I wasn't referring to you and I. But you know "The Usual Suspects".
There's basically two teams playing against each other in this debate/match.
And there's no referee to blow full time. Laughing

I think I'll do something useful and go walk the dog.

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@Ionus,

I am not frightened of any book. I said reading one fm recommended will be a waste of time. I was only joking when I said it would cause me to end up like fm. There's no chance of that.

Let's do some nitty gritty eh? In John Locke's Essay Concerning Human Understanding he attempted to explain the existence of ideas in relation to their origin in sensations.

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......there is another Connexion of Ideas wholly owing to Chance or Custom; Ideas that in themselves are not all of kin, come to be so united in some Men's Mind's, that 'tis very hard to separate them, they always keep in company, and the one no sooner at any time comes into the Understanding but its associate appears with it; and if they are more than two thus united, the whole gang always inseparable show themselves together.

Freud traced neuroses back to sensations in infancy and adolescence. Proximity to female flesh, potty training and sex to put it crudely. I am maintaining that the ideas of anti-IDers can be traced back to a rejection of Christian morality in adolescence for obvious reasons and that the restrictions of Christian morality becomes united in the mind with attacking Christianity generally and are inseparable from it.

A whole industry based on profit from wholesale rejection of Christian morality has grown up and feeds the mind having such a connection ingrained in it with as much evidence as it needs. The problem is that some of the evidence is far too much even for such a mind and thus the hypocrisy charge is proven. And the lie by omission.

Again, to resort to crudity, why are anti-IDers not libertines subscribing to the teachings of the Marquis de Sade and Wilhelm Reich in respect of those aspects of them which are not illegal.

You're emphasis on "culture" in your reply to ecy makes it difficult to understand why you allow fm to sidetrack you down routes irrelevant to the socialisation of our culture in schools. Psychology, the psychosomatic realm and the sociological and economic implications of them are the only relevant aspects of debates about what to teach to adolescents.

As far as I'm aware it was me who coined the expression "anti-IDer" a few years ago on wande's other thread. You might well have fit the description for a long time but were you aware that you were being fed the evidence you wanted to be fed and not any which challenged your basic Christian orientation? You're all Christians you know. I bet you could all easily socialise with my church going aunties. I couldn't.

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@eurocelticyankee,

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Anyhow that's why I try not to get involved in these type of debates because you just go round in circles and end up back where you started.
All that's left is two diametrically opposed views and a lot of hot air.

As the actress said to the bishop ecy--"Either get on or get off."

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@Ionus,

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The local library tries hard but often takes two months to order in specific books from other libraries, and the central ref library collection involves a 3 hr drive one way.

There are a number of sites Io where second-hand books, particularly passe paperbacks, can be had for not much more than the price of the postage. I think one should own any book one has read unless there are unusual circumstances operating.

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@spendius,

I'd say your getting off al'right, Spendy.

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@eurocelticyankee,

Too right I am. I never learned so much interesting stuff so fast in my life before as I have on here.

"He not busy being born is busy dyin'." These other guys on here are no further on than they were at 21. And the more detail they find, which really adds nothing except more detail, the more stuck fast they become on the Pavlovian pleasure conditioning principle so that each ego tickle from finding more confirmation that they are right the faster stuck they get.

At this late stage they can't afford to consider the possibility of being wrong. They have painted themselves into a corner and science is out of the window except for the bits of it, not always real science, they can use to confirm that it's the right corner. And the white towel is flapping all the time. Which in this ring looks like ignoring pertinent questions and even posters. At coffee mornings it looks like pretending not to have heard something. Or smelled it.

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@spendius,

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All that's left is two diametrically opposed views and a lot of hot air.

Like I said.

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