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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2010 03:02 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
it's just that I couldn't find a non-mathematical explanation for either the "many worlds" or the "many minds"


I don't wonder seeing as there isn't one. I doubt there's a mathematical one but I daresay somebody is asserting there is in a manner that's not falsifiable. Or even comprehensible, although I expect some will be nodding their heads in order to associate themselves with such esoteric wisdom so that they look brainy.

Quote:
Nature speaks in mathematics - and slowly we're learning that language.


Old Pythagie again. It's all been broken down by modern science hasn't it? Those indeterminacy and complementarity hoodlums is wot done it Miss. And objects have disappeared in a cloud of something or other and are only what they appear to be to us and thus everything we say about them using our languages is anthropomorphic in how they appear and also anthropomorphic in how we describe them. Shaken and not stirred.

So there's nothing we can say about a transcendent being but only about the interpretations of Its will, which, should they include that anybody with a username on the internet with initials H.S. gets $50 million and a ride on Lexington Steele's motorbike, would probably find eager acceptance and devotion in those quarters which satisfy the necessary criteria.

That's a metaphor for how lucky I feel to have been born in a Christian world. I daresay Henry VIII would have coughed up the equivalent of $50 million in old money for any sort of decent motorbike.

Or a cure for gout.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2010 06:06 pm
According to a Sky News "Special" the Tea Party rests its case on the Constitution.

I assume all the anti-IDers are keen supporters.

I rest my case on where we are going rather than where we have been.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2010 06:17 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
teaching in science classes must be limited to scientific theories. Non-scientific, metaphysical theories of course have their place in religion, or philosophy, or history classes - or anywhere, really, except in any math and science class.
AMEN to that. We agree. I would like to point out many advanced scientific theories have been very unscientific in their first draft, waiting for other sciences to catch up. A Greek philosopher who imagined atoms - very unscientific. A trader who imagined the true cycle of the planets - very unscientific. A patent clerk who imagined light speed - very unscientific. For the things that cant be imagined, maths is a good working mechanism but it is very slow to advance compared to leaps that can be made with imagination.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2010 06:24 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
never let the study of science overlap with those other domains!
Science claims everything as its domain.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2010 06:24 pm
Quote:
teaching in science classes must be limited to scientific theories. Non-scientific, metaphysical theories of course have their place in religion, or philosophy, or history classes - or anywhere, really, except in any math and science class.


Does that mean science classes should be held in specially protected buildings well away from schools and communities?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 05:54 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
Nobody here has done that - to my knowledge at any rate. Generally: pls refer to answer I just posted ref. confusion noted by Edgar and Spendius.
Its interesting that the Evangelicals have been the ones whove been trying for years to insert their religious views into our public education process. They dont seem to want to take "no thank you" for an answer. Several people herein have adopted an advocacy of a religious stand as if it were even possible to insert religious dogma into science. It aint gonna happen --and as long as we have a constitution that is interpreted the way it has been for the last 70 years, we are ok.
The very reason that this is even necessary is because once, when the religious DID have control of the developing public education system, they made it illegal to teach evolution at all. SO now, they reap the results of being intolerant of science in the first place. Its kind of interesting how several people are asserting that weve been dismissive. We may be vigilant, we may be argumentative, we may be determined to maintain the Constitutional interpretation. We certainly aint dismissive.(I proudly include myself in the "we")
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 06:04 am
@farmerman,
A hobby of mine is to collect old school books from the early part of the twentueth century and late 19th century. I have a rather small collection now but I do see several editions of science and history books on ABE's books.
The reason I collect these is to provide some sense of the evolution of the concepts that we now rtake for granted. Im especially interested in the rise of tectonic theory, Quantum chemistry and its effects on the methodology used today even in high schools, American history texts were loaded with post reconstruction bullshit, and evolution was pretty much avoided, even though the introduction of the concept of fossils and strata were attempted to be explained away in a more or less Biblical worldview.
These were not "fringey" texts , they were texts that were used in schools that , since the earliest decade of the twentieth century, were only beginning to consolidate and be established as "public schools". These followed the BArnard and Mann established schools in New England. The earliest public schools were mostly what wed consider "Elementary" so real science education was only available as secondary ed from the 1920's and on.
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 06:12 am
In a sigle instance, i found an old American university text which was impressive. It was a text for ancient history, and it cited the best authors on that subject circa 1910, as well as the then most current archaeological information. There was a Judeo-Christian bias, to be sure, but that bias was to be found in the choice of archaeological investigations. It even briefly discussed the possibility that such a bias existed. It was frankly very surprising for its time.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 06:29 am
@Setanta,
University texts can follow a three part test of "state of a prctice"

1They attempted to be based on ongoing research (which was admittedly a lot slower then)

2They reflected the tenor of the scientific literature , (even though a text often lagged the literature by several years")

3And, they tended to follow the ongoing interests and projects of the major textbook authors (The science of paleontology really took off in the 1920's only after Roy Chapman ANdrews (a sort of fossil hunting Indiana Jones) Began fighting with the powers that be at the American Museum Of NAt History and was allowd to make "field trips" to all over. Archeology too, had its big leap of interest when Carter dug up this little EGyptian boy.

What was the name of that book Set? I am interested in these things as almost fo rensic evidence and I appreciate the review youve given. It would step back the scientific approach several decades before Tut. ( As an aside Archeological interest in AMerinds was almost unknown until the late 50's) The really early texts by guys like Bakesless were mid century, and the Mooney (ethnology) reports were IMHO, written from a lingering "manifest destiny" view
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 06:40 am
@farmerman,
FM, you might be interested in a book I bought for one of my teacher friends:

Not Writt4en in Stone: Learning and Unlearning American History Through 200 years, by Kyle Ward.

Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly

Ward wants students to understand history in layers, and offers a historiography illuminating the biases of over four centuries of American historical reporting by looking at textbooks from the last 200 years. Texts in 1832, for instance, referred to the Native American as a savage who was "in general governed by his passions, without much restraint from the authority of his chiefs," a man who is "remarkably hospitable to strangers," but will "revenge an injury whenever an opportunity offers, as long as he lives." But by the late 19th century, Native Americans were "Noble Savages" to be admired for their simpler lifestyle: "The Indian men loved to fight, for they sometimes felt like tigers"; however, when they tired of fighting, "they would sometimes become good friends, as we white people do." Ward groups texts by subject and lays them out chronologically, illuminating sweeping evolutions in historic scholarship and thought. History is often mistaken as a fixed narrative, but with careful research and composition, Ward reveals significant ways in which historians were influenced by the spirit of their time. (June) (c)

Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

Product Description

Looking at the different ways textbooks from different eras present the same historical events, Not Written in Stone offers an abridged and annotated version of Kyle Ward’s celebrated History in the Making specifically designed for classroom use. In each section, Ward provides an overview, questions for discussions and analysis, and then a fascinating chronological sampling of textbook excerpts that reveal the fascinating differences between different textbooks over time.

Topics covered include: Images of Native Americans, Columbus’ First Voyage, Pocahontas and Captain John Smith, Anne Hutchinson, Pequot War, Property Rights in the New World, Salem Witch-hunt, Boston Massacre, Lexington and Concord, The Battle of Trenton, George Rogers Clark, Women in the American Revolution, Shays’ Rebellion, The Barbary Pirates, Sacagawea, Tecumseh and Harrison, Monroe Doctrine, The Alamo, The Trail of Tears, Andrew Jackson’s Adoption, Start of the Mexican-American War, Mormons, Dred Scott, African-American Soldiers, Slavery, US-Dakota War of 1862, African-Americans during Reconstruction, Andrew Carnegie and the Homestead Strike, Wounded Knee Massacre, Immigrants, McKinley Assassination, Philippine-American War.
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 06:45 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
it's just that I couldn't find a non-mathematical explanation for either the "many worlds" or the "many minds"


I don't wonder seeing as there isn't one. I doubt there's a mathematical one but I daresay somebody is asserting there is in a manner that's not falsifiable. ....

If it's not falsifiable it can't be science. How can you persist in pseudo-religious anti-evolution blab in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Might as well oppose the theory of continental drift - arriving a century after evolution, but somehow universally accepted now.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 06:50 am
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
BBB, thats now on my list to get. Thanks for the tip.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 06:59 am
@farmerman,
This sounds like a political digression but it isn't: archeology and history have political dimensions as well, but right now we're looking at a potential attempt to conceal evidence that, if proven, should lead to massive fallout for the Obama administration officials responsible.
http://www.newschief.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=WN&Date=20101027&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=101029971&Ref=V1&MaxW=250&border=0
On September 3rd a UPS plane crashed at takeoff from Dubai following an explosion in the cargo hold, killing both pilots. At the time administration officials downplayed the potential of terrorist involvement, blaming the explosion on lithium batteries on the electronic products carried by the plane. Suddenly starting last Friday - 4 days before an important election - all TV channels and almost all government announcements are overwhelmed by "terrorist warnings" on potentially dangerous electronic products in the cargo of 2 other UPS planes. A deliberate attempt to scare the people into voting for the current incompetents in government is a distinct possibility - but it's something that should be falsifiable by scientific investigation. A successful cover-up is, I hope, unlikely, as too many people are involved.

Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 07:05 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
What was the name of that book Set?


I'm sorry, Boss, but i couldn't tell you. It was the text of a woman who had died a few years previously, and i saw it while idly looking through some books at the home of the aunt and uncle of a friend of mine. I was flipping through it, and saw a footnote citing Mommsen. So i looked through it more carefully and realized that the authors (unnamed) had actually done the work carefully.

In the same house was the high school history text of the daughter of the house, who is about ten or twelve years younger than i am. It was written by two associate professors, and they did not cite their sources, presenting everything ipse dixit. It was full of gross errors--such as that Roanoke Island is in Virginia (it's a part of North Carolina) and that the colony there, the famous "Lost Colony" was founded in 1588 (it was founded in 1584). There were some other corkers in there, too, although i don't recall them all. I suspect that the text from circa 1910 reflected the standard of quality of its day, just as the text from the late 1970s reflected the lack of a standard of quality.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 07:13 am
@Setanta,
Maybe the two writers were referring to the area of Roanaoke Island as "then" being called Virginia. DId they even explain these foopazes?
Im losing faith in editors. Apparently it didnt begin with Robertas travails with authors.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 08:55 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
If it's not falsifiable it can't be science. How can you persist in pseudo-religious anti-evolution blab in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Might as well oppose the theory of continental drift - arriving a century after evolution, but somehow universally accepted now.


Look HS. Would you mind not waltzing into the thread at this late stage and making unwarranted assumptions about what I am persisting in without having read the whole of it as I have. I can't be expected to go back to the juvenalia from the beginning everytime somebody jumps in in order that they might imagine themselves to be running with the boys in a scientific debate.

What you know about modern science could be written on the back of a postage stamp with a paint-spray can.

It is merely a selective gleaning from some old fashioned journalism which is written for a market. You have no inkling of the role played by the likes of Mallarme and Rimbaud and the cult of deconstruction. None of your words bear any relation to the reality you believe, yes believe, they signify. They are nothing but status symbols reflecting your personal subjectivities and conceits.

You don't even know what modern science is.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 09:27 am
Quote:
India yields fossil trove in amber
(By Alexandra Witze, ScienceNews.org, October 25th, 2010)

A 52-million-year-old ant is just one of a rich collection of fossils found in newly discovered amber deposits from western India. The fossil trove includes bees, ants, gnats, flies, termites and other insects typical of the Eocene period, paleontologists report October 25 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The collection is more diverse than might be expected, writes a team led by Jes Rust of the University of Bonn in Germany and David Grimaldi of the American Museum of Natural History in New York City. At the time the amber formed, India was just ending a long period of isolation: The tectonic plate carrying it had separated from Madagascar around 40 million years earlier and was on the verge of the collision with the Asian plate that would eventually give rise to the Himalayas.

India’s 40-million-year isolation might have restricted biological diversity the way that Australia’s does today, the scientists say. Yet the amber contains a relatively wide range of species, suggesting instead that continental isolation does not always lead to biological sparseness.
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 11:41 am
@farmerman,
No, that wasn't a dodge they could have used, as they said that Roanoke Island is located in Virginia.

Yeah, and editor might have ameliorated that situation, but then, that editor would have had to have known enough to question the claim.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 11:49 am
@wandeljw,
That's terrible stuff wande. It's for first grade swot types.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2010 12:54 pm
@wandeljw,
My deal Wandel - I personally can vouch for the truth of the fact that India split from Africa because I went diving in the abyssal basaltic rift offshore Mahe, main island of the Seychelles chain, and nearly drowned at only a few dozen feet underwater. I went with a couple of locals in a boat; we had no common language, and I very, very foolishly decided not to wait for a friend who was due to join me - that's in crystal-clear water, you can see forever, so why bother waiting for a buddy? So I got to the depth I had set my weights for and then suddenly froze....

.... in all directions, yes, bright blue water, but in one incomprehensibly huge direction was only this endless black thing, stretching out forever. And I got so overwhelmed by a sense of falling into it - it was like parachuting at night before the chute opens, but worse, because at least while parachuting you know you're going downwards, and this massive black monstrosity might be in any direction, it was just an abyss drawing me towards it - well, can't explain it, and hope you never know what it's like, because I thought I'm not getting away from it.

That's also when I found out that we really think in words - hadn't known that before. I know that in my mind these exact words were formulated clearly: "Poseidon, lord of the waters, please help." And yes there was help: a tiny voice in my brain said: "Exhale. Any way the bubbles go is up. " I know I heard those words, but can't account for them. I had panicked and was about to pass out from holding my breath - and that's with 2 full tanks of oxygen on my back! Anyway, I did as the voice said, then followed the bubbles for a while, then looked up - and saw 3 massive dark shadows circling near the surface above. Depth was such that I had to wait 10 minutes, but by then I was calm and watched the shadows for a while, wondering if they're sharks.

After the 10-minute obligatory stop I started going up again slowly - somehow all fear had left me and I was only curious to meet the dark shadows. Suddenly the 3 of them turned, looked at me, and dived close enough so I could see they were dolphins; they came quite close to me, smiled at me, and one of them nuzzled me. Completely forgetting it's not a good idea to laugh while scuba diving, I did just that, messing up my oxygen and starting to choke and cry and I think also drown, when the dolphins resolutely picked me up with their noses and brought me to the surface. After I was done coughing and spitting up water - I looked around for them: vanished without even leaving any ripples in the water. Then I remembered dolphins are Poseidon's companions, so it all made sense.

Then I turned and saw the boat was still there, at some small distance; the crew came over and picked me up. I said nothing, but when we got to dry land I had someone ask them if they had seen any dolphins, and both men denied having seen anyone or anything in the sea except me. Both however looked scared - well, natives are a superstitious lot.

There must be some easier way to prove continental drift, but surely eyewitness testimony must count for something Smile
 

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