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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2010 07:33 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
have had grave doubts on allocation of public funds to support religion(s).
Most people have grave doubts on the allocation of funds to support government.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2010 08:59 am
Quote:
For tens of millions of Americans, the Rev. Rick Warren is best known for his blockbuster spiritual guide, “The Purpose Driven Life,” which has sold more than 25 million copies; his success as the founder of the 22,000-member Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif.; and his efforts on behalf of some of the world’s neediest people.

But for tens of thousands of ministers — and their financial advisers — Pastor Warren will also be remembered as their champion in a fight over the most valuable tax break available to ordained clergy members of all faiths: an exemption from federal taxes for most of the money they spend on housing, which typically represents roughly a third of their compensation. Pastor Warren argued that the tax break is essential to poorly paid clergy members who serve society.

The tax break is not available to the staff at secular nonprofit organizations whose scale and charitable aims compare to those of religious ministries like Pastor Warren’s church, or to poorly paid inner-city teachers and day care workers who also serve their communities.

The housing deduction is one of several tax breaks that leave extra money in the pockets of clergy members and their religious employers. Ministers of every faith are also exempt from income tax withholding and can opt out of Social Security. And every state but one exempts religious employers from paying state unemployment taxes — reducing the employers’ payroll expenses but also leaving their workers without unemployment benefits if they are laid off.

Another religion-based tax break — the only one consistently defeated in the courts in recent years — is an exemption from state sales taxes for religious publications but not for secular ones.

This sales tax break has been struck down as unconstitutional in at least five states, most recently in Georgia in February, when a United States District Court judge, Richard W. Story, ruled that “the unique and preferential treatment the state provides to ‘religious’ literature raises serious constitutional concerns” under the First Amendment clause prohibiting an “establishment” of religion.

Yet a few states still have a sales tax exemption for religious publications. One of them is Florida, where state officials, lawyers for two religious publications and a national religious liberty advocacy group have joined forces to defend the tax break from a constitutional challenge waged almost single-handedly by an Orlando lawyer named Heather Morcroft.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2010 12:54 pm
@Ionus,
What do you think Io of a bunch of people who seek to determine the education of 50 million kids and carry on as if nothing has happened after I put the Prof. Steiner post on the thread. As if there's no need to offer a response to it and they just put their heads down and press ahead with their ungracious and disgraceful expressions of the shallowess bigotry it has ever been my lot to witness. One might vote for Ms O' Donnell (whose name some of them haven't the manners to learn to spell correctly) knowing that such people are against her. Many Americans have said they would rather vote for a monkey than an atheist and one can see why from the performance of this lot. A totalitarian that can only eat bananas and gibber is better than this sort of totalitarian.

One might easily catch that accent of the priggish, inflated, inhibited, school-ma'amish arch braying of blameless bashful mewling maidens in every post they write, but for them to just turn away from an academic of Prof. Steiner's standing and claim to be here to debate is ludicrous.

No--they are here to draw attention to themselves, provide their rage with the catharsis of invective directed at absent people, insinuate hints and even declarations of their personal excellence complete with the most wearying descriptions of their daily doings and **** all over the schools of the nation by introducing and presumably perfecting, given that scientists will sell out if the Party rewards it, Orwellian modes of learning, and turn the kids into what Luc Godard shows the chambermaid to be in Alphaville. The lady with her number tattooed on her neck. Debate ain't in it. I'm the troll. It's official. Feet have been stamped on it. Tongues have been pulled out. Mnuuuuhh!!!s have been blurted and veins in temples have pulsed and throbbed with indignation.

It's official.

And I'll bet not a one of them is as kissable as Christine is.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2010 03:19 pm
There has been talk of Ms O'Donnell needing a dictionary to discover the meaning of "theory". But the word has lost it source. Its birthright: where its meanings and connotations are drawn from religious rituals as well as secular sources. It is to do with a highly focussed insight and partial understanding concerning some object without ignoring any of its characteristics and requiring patience as well as diligence. It is vitally connected to the deeds of witnessing by certain observers of the religious activities, oracles, prayers and sacrificial rites, and the secular activities of a physical nature, taking place in the Attic games. Mind and matter.

Thus a theorist is a discplined observer who is concerned with both intellectual sense perception and religious ritual.

Even those who swear by the doctrine of the separation of the sacred and the secular are claiming, just by owning a dictionary, that they know the meaning of such a word and thus demonstrate that the religious and secular are conjoined in their own mind, unconsciously, not to mention in every word the Constitution is written in. Or they don't actually know the meaning themselves but are pretending to in the service of their desired suspension of morals.

The theory as a speculative system or exposition of some general idea is emasculated in the usage on this thread. It has cut itself off from some of the ideas, the religious ones. The functions of ritual. The NFL team's logos. The beauty salon. High Mass.

Thus it is circular, it defines itself for each user, and the same applies to the fundamentalist who cuts off the secular, or tries to with varying degrees of enthusiasm, and, as such, cannot be disproved and is therefore a faith.

The "Theory of Intelligent Design", in its pure state, does not use the word incorrectly. At Dover the pure state wasn't even mentioned. It is ignored on this thread. It's no wonder anti-IDers are bigots. Everybody has the fullest confidence if he starts with his own rules. He can't be wrong and his bigotry is justified in his own eyes.

They say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2010 03:30 pm
@spendius,
Sorry about that Spendius! You are correct Spendius It does seem odd that I wrote that, it must have been the rum speaking. Drunk
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2010 03:44 pm
@Setanta,
Right on, set.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2010 04:02 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Many Americans have said they would rather vote for a monkey than an atheist and one can see why from the performance of this lot.
I dont know if you will get an emotionally stable monkey to give up bananas and the forest to become one of this lot....monkeys can see what's wrong with evolution theory.

Quote:
And I'll bet not a one of them is as kissable as Christine is.
You are not thanked for the mental image of someone kissing one of them.

They will do a deal, Spendi......you worship Gomer the Turd as the Geology God, **** for Brains as the History God, Me as the Aviation God, Wandeljw as the...I forget what deal they offered him.....and maybe one day they will worship you too !
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2010 04:15 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
It's no wonder anti-IDers are bigots. Everybody has the fullest confidence if he starts with his own rules. He can't be wrong and his bigotry is justified in his own eyes.
The bigotry that produced the Nazis is alive and well...it still uses science against religion and is still based on a handful of influential people with no codified formula for day to day issues.

Quote:
They say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Are you saying they will be even more dangerous when they venture forth from no knowledge ? Because that is what they continue to demonstrate about human emotions, education and child development, religion, psychology, religion, society, morality, politics, diplomacy, evolution.....ah hell, it is too long a list....it is tiresome to state what they dont know...it is easier to state what they do know.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2010 04:19 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Right on, set.
Excellent post, Mister Edd...the depth, the wit, the charm.... the humanity, the science.....that post leaves me feeling in awe that you can even manage respiration with an intelligence of that magnitude .
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2010 04:52 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Right on, set.


What does Setanta mean by--

Quote:
cheating the poor, innocent red men.


Cheating had nothing to do with it. They were run off their happy hunting grounds with European technology applied violently. With the same weapons the immigrants would have been swimming back to Europe.

What do you mean by "right on". Setanta is a gobshite.

He hasn't the nerve to say the truth. That Christianity out-adapted the red man on evolutionary principles. He's up a gum tree.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2010 04:57 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
That Christianity out-adapted the red man on evolutionary principles.
He conveniently overlooks that many red men tribes had been eliminated by other tribes before the white tribe came along.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2010 05:02 pm
@Ionus,
He overlooks everything his ridiculous position demands that he overlooks. If he Ignores me imagine what he has closed his eyes to in the past.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2010 03:51 am
Some recent books that, IMHO are very good attempts at understanding the rise of Pre Cambrian (pC) life on the planet.

A. DARWINS LOST WORLD(2010) Oxford Press. Martin Brassier

Darwin had no idea about the presence and locations of pC fossils. To that question, Brassier takes a "road trip" to (as many) of the newest and classical pC fossil locations. He brings together their first appearances and the geological evidence surrounding the determination of their ages.

B. LIFE ON A YOUNG PLANET.(2004) Princeton U Press. Andrew Knoll.

Knoll concentrates on the interrelationships of the emergence of pC life with all the recent evidence regarding plate tectonics, environmental reconstructions, "fossil" DNA,atmospherics and the appearances of atmospheric gases, and the stratigraphic reconstruction of the pC. Its little denser than Brassiers book but not unapproachable for the interested amateur. It requires you to spend a little time getting familiar with many terms in genetics, chemistry, and geology. BUT, its highly worth the effort if youre really interested in the subject.
(Course I dont have any life beyond my rocks so I am easily impressed) A note: When Knoll wraps ir up, he uses the field evidence here on earth to reccomend a discipline in which to analyze the possibilities of life on other planets. (That section is kinda wifty but I think he had a page count contract)

spendius
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2010 04:57 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Moderator Blatham threatened (strong word, but accurate - that silly mountie) to ban me for my "tone." Needless to say, he didn't agree with my views...


It was on another thread yesterday.

So!! Bernie was a commissar mod. I had suspected that NYC leftie scene right from when I first entered this, my only, foray into the cyber world.

A few cogs have clicked into place.

I could name a large number of books that IMHO people would be better employing their precious time on than those two fm. It isn't as if we have unlimited time.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2010 09:39 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

......When Knoll wraps ir up, he uses the field evidence here on earth to reccomend a discipline in which to analyze the possibilities of life on other planets. (That section is kinda wifty but I think he had a page count contract)

The word "wifty" - probably a typo - somehow describes the status of probabilistic calculations for the emergence of consciousness.

Nobody understands consciousness, let alone how to calculate probability of its appearance. Very roughly, for a unique universe, the one we see, the numbers are: about a quintillion planets; by heroically throwing zeroes by the wayside we come up with about a million planets meeting the specs (such as liquid water) for life to appear; of these, some may see simple (non-eukaryotic) life forms; some of those may cross into more advanced entities. But we may be alone in having consciousness - really, really, low probability event.

Btw, I owe an explanation to Ionus, to whom I said that once something has happened its probability gets to 100% and stays there forever: that's only true where there's decoherence of the wave-function - i.e. we opened the box and found if that cat is definitely dead or definitely alive. If the wave-function never decoheres - which is theoretically possible if there are infinitely many parallel universes - the cat is alive in some, dead in others, and suspended in some quantum uncertainty in all the rest of them.

The mathematics in the non-decoherence case are beyond me, but here's an article, with chart: http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/crazy.html
http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/toe_cut.gif

Evolution, on the other hand, is an extremely high probability process in all cases where life has started; a certainty on our own planet - it has happened and will continue happening as long as there's life forms of any kind. But the idea of all those infinite, eternal, parallel universes is so much beyond most peoples' conceptual abilities (mine included) that it really seems simpler to believe in a god of some sort.

Back to your book review - is this, roughly, the author's probability calculation for life on other planets?
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2010 10:38 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
have had grave doubts on allocation of public funds to support religion(s).
Most people have grave doubts on the allocation of funds to support government.

Especially a government as wasteful as ours - its banknotes read "In God We Trust" and it doesn't seem to understand decoherence Smile
http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/everett_newsci3.gif
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2010 12:56 pm
@High Seas,
Infinity partakes of an infinite number of planets meeting the specifications for life.

There's another difficulty. Language itself, grammatical-logical discourse, is inadequate to address the grammer of matter. All it can do is reach towards an understanding of matter. Those who reach furthest in attempting to translate matter into sense, artists, can only provide their own individual insights into it in their productions and in what they say about it. All secondary, parasitic, interpretations by critics and academics are, in the word of Hans Keller, "phoney".

Darwin's language is inadequate to address the grammer and syntax of "life". And hopelessly so. Pretending that it is adequate is an authentic sign of the mediocre and the fear of the unknown and unknowable. It is the control freak's worst nightmare that he might not know of what it is he speaks so authoritatively. Hence the rage at spirituality. Hence the confusion between the spiritual functions of a religion and its secular functions. All the crimes laid at the door of the Church, and they are many, result from its secular aspects and no conclusion can be drawn from them regarding its spiritual ideals. Anti-IDers have not yet escaped that basic error and I doubt they ever will.

0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2010 02:21 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Coons explained in the debate that the separation of church and state doctrine developed through supreme court decisions on the first amendment.


A 1947 supreme court decision explains the scope of the establishment clause and specifically describes it as a separation between church and state:

Quote:
The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.'

-U.S. Supreme Court, EVERSON v. BOARD OF EDUCATION OF EWING TP., 330 U.S. 1 (1947)
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2010 02:27 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
Back to your book review - is this, roughly, the author's probability calculation for life on other planets?
No, the way he makes a case for the appearance of life on other planets is basically a summation of the "necessary ingredients" for life and how our planet, as the model of the "test kitchen" has about 10 or more chemical and biochemical and geological stages that he considers critical . Now, this is based upon the only life system he knows of, (the carbon/nitrogen/phosphorus/iron H2O system that e enjoy). Hes not considered a silica based life system , an iron based system, or sulphur or phosphorus . (Actually any of the amphoteric elements have multi ionic radii and valence modes so it would be possible for a life system to arise from any of them).

No mathturbation was involved,just alchemy.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2010 05:25 pm
@farmerman,
Have vague echoes of valence in memory but unless you tell me with an equation can't follow whatever words you're saying. Given our universe of origin all of us have a hard time figuring out how that cat exists in those parallel universes at all - and if we happened to trip over the critter we would probably strangle it to put it out of its misery, floating as it is in some probabilistic purgatory. Forget carbon, and chemistry in general: have you thought about the crystalline structure? For some reason (purely algorithmic, as in keep-it-simple) the fact that every snowflake is unique made me think they might replicate - bringing forth offspring. Did you look up my link? Did you get infinite regress syndrome headache?!
 

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