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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 08:44 am
@spendius,
Quote:
I know fm. You just declare yourselves to be wonderful and, hey presto, you are. It's brilliant I must admit

Ivelearnt from the demeanor of your pronouncements that if we dont brag for ourselves noone else will.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 08:58 am
@farmerman,
I've been wondering if there's similarity between Dover and the USSC hearings for Roe Wade in respect of all the available evidence not being aired.

One of the earliest descriptions of the care of the premature infant is that of the English clergyman and novelist Laurence Sterne (1713-1768) in his preposterously comic novel, Tristram Shandy. Sterne described the case of Licetus Fortunio (1577-1657), an Italian physician who was born prematurely as follows:

Quote:
. . . And for Licetus Fortunio . . . all the world knows he was born a foetus. [He] was no larger than the palm of the hand, five and one half inches, but the father, having examined it in his medical capacity, and having found that it was something more than a mere embryo, brought it living to Rapallo, where it was seen by Jerome Bardi and other doctors of the place. They found it was not deficient in anything essential to life, and the father, in order to show his skill, undertook to finish the work of nature and to perfect the formation of the infant by the same artifice as is used in Egypt for the hatching of chickens. He instructed a wet-nurse in all she had to do, and having put his son in an oven, suitably arranged, he succeeded in rearing him, and in making him take on the necessary increase of growth, by the uniformity of the external heat, measured accurately in the degrees of a thermometer, or other equivalent instrument.


That is from Wiki and is slightly different from the translation given in the notes to TS by Ian Campbell Ross. Stern gives the French in a note to Chapter X of Volume IV taken (quote mined) from Adrien Baillet's Des Enfans devenus celebres(1588).

It continues further than the Wiki quote though--

Quote:
One would still have to be very satisfied with the industry of a father so skilled in the art of generation, had he been able to prolong his son's life for no more than a few months or a few years.
But when one considers that the child lived nearly eighty years, and that he composed twenty-four different works, each the fruit of long reading, one must acknowledge that all that is incredible is not always false, and that appearance is not always on the side of truth.
He was only nineteen when he composed Gonopsychanthropologia de Origine Animae humanae.


Which Sterne says is a title as long as he was.

I imagine that the USSC had such things on Ignore just as Judge Jones did at Dover with other things no less remarkable.

There have been 49,551,703 government approved abortions since the fateful deliberations of the cream of American intellectuals in 1973. One has to wonder how much talent has been flushed down the drains with a number that large to conjure with. It represents almost a sixth of the US population today so one might presume that US Nobel Prize winners are 6/7ths of what they might have been.

You quote mined every word in your post and one of them, gravity, you have no idea what it means.

Piss off fm--you're stupid as Io says. You make it up as you go along. Your accusation that Io's insults derive from his envy of your genius was turned onto your own insults directed at me which comprise a far greater pile than Io's do. And now your squirming with baseless assertions and infantile invective which denigrates scholarship itself.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 09:07 am
@farmerman,
You haven't a scientific bone in your body fm. You're a ******* counter-jumper. And the same goes for your fellow anti-IDers on here. Not a sniff. Why American scientists don't tell you to get off the case I can't imagine.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 09:12 am
Quote:
Self-Assembly of the Bacterial Flagellum: No Intelligence Required
(Kathryn Applegate, The BioLogos Forum, August 19, 2010)

In my last post, I explained why the bacterial flagellum remains so powerful an icon for the Intelligent Design (ID) movement: it looks and functions just like the outboard motor, a machine designed by intelligent human engineers. So conspicuous is the resemblance that it seems perfectly logical to infer a Designer for the flagellum.

Yet as we saw, appearances can be deceiving. ID advocates William Dembski and Jonathan Witt agree that “a careful investigator will be on guard against deceiving appearances. The sun looks like it rises in the east and sets in the west, but really the Earth spins on its axis as it revolves around the sun. A healthy skepticism about appearances is vital…To distinguish appearance from reality, the successful investigator must remain open to various possibilities and follow the evidence.”

Despite the strong appearance of special design, most scientists, myself included, believe the evidence points to a gradual development for the bacterial flagellum. We’ll delve into some of that evidence in future posts. First, however, I want to explain how flagella are assembled in bacteria. This amazing process gives me such delight in our Father’s world; I hope it does for you as well.

The bacterial flagellum may look like an outboard motor, but there is at least one profound difference: the flagellum assembles spontaneously, without the help of any conscious agent. The self-assembly of such a complex machine almost defies the imagination. As I showed with an earlier blog on the self-assembly of viruses (much simpler contraptions by comparison), all such phenomena seem astonishing and counterintuitive.

Because the tail of the flagellum extends well beyond the bacterial cell wall, many of its 40 or so components have to be extruded through an export apparatus that assembles first and makes up the base of the final structure. In general, assembly occurs as a linear process, with components in the base coming together first, followed by the formation of the hook, followed by formation of the filament.

First, the MS-ring assembles in the inner cell membrane, most likely in conjunction with some of the export proteins. The MS-ring serves as housing for the export apparatus and as a mounting plate for the rotor, which will assemble later.

Next, the stator assembles around the MS-ring, followed by the rotor. The stator remains fixed in the cell’s frame of reference, while the rotor spins; together, these two parts make up the proton-powered motor.

Now that the base of the flagellum is built, most of the remaining parts are assembled from proteins exported through its center. First comes the rod, made of four different kinds of proteins, guided by a fifth, the “rod cap,” which is believed to help break down the tough bacterial cell wall.

This “rod cap” is then displaced by a “hook cap,” which guides the formation of the hook structure. The hook acts as a universal joint to connect the rod and the filament. When the hook reaches its characteristic length, several “junction zones” form, followed by the export of the “filament cap” protein. This cap structure, different than the rod or hook caps, guides the bundling of more than 20,000 copies of a protein called flagellin into a helical tail.

The helical filament is long and fragile, but breakage is not too serious a concern for the bacterium. Like a lizard, the flagellum can grow a new tail if it breaks, because flagellin proteins continue to move down the central channel from the cell body toward the tip. Other parts of the flagellum are dynamic as well: individual proteins in the rotor and stator, for example, can exchange with freely-diffusing proteins in the membrane. Such activity may be important for the bacterium’s direction-sensing capability.

Scientists are pretty clever at teasing out the workings of microscopic machines like the flagellum. The general order of assembly was meticulously worked out by removing individual protein components one at a time and observing what occurred. If you remove the flagellin protein, for instance, you get the base and the hook, but not the tail. This tells us that the tail forms late in the assembly process. If you remove one of the proteins that make up the MS-ring, on the other hand, the motor elements do not assemble and neither does the rest of the flagellum. That’s how we know the MS-ring isn’t just tacked on at the end.

Other scientists have looked at how the timing of the assembly process is controlled at the genetic level. The genes that contain the instructions for making all the protein components of the flagellum are organized in a number of clusters called operons. Each operon is read when its “master sequence” is activated like a light switch. When the switch is flipped, the genes in that particular operon are interpreted by the cell so that the corresponding proteins are made. It turns out that the genes needed to produce proteins in the base of the flagellum are activated first. Once the base is complete, a clever feedback mechanism flips the next switch, activating the next set of genes, which allows later stages of assembly to occur, and so on. (It’s actually more complicated than that, but you get the idea.) So the parts of the flagellum are made “just in time,” shortly before each piece is needed.

Nothing we know from every day life quite prepares us for the beauty and power of self-assembly processes in nature. We’ve all put together toys, furniture, or appliances; even the simplest designs require conscious coordination of materials, tools, and assembly instructions (and even then there’s no guarantee that we get it right!). It is tempting to think the spontaneous formation of so complex a machine is “guided,” whether by a Mind or some “life force,” but we know that the bacterial flagellum, like countless other machines in the cell, assembles and functions automatically according to known natural laws. No intelligence required.

Several ID advocates, most notably Michael Behe, have written engagingly about the details of flagellar assembly. For that I am grateful—it is wonderful when the lay public gets excited about science! But I worry that in their haste to take down the theory of evolution, they create a lot of confusion about how God’s world actually operates.

When reading their work, I’m left with the sense that the formation of complex structures like the bacterial flagellum is miraculous, rather than the completely normal behavior of biological molecules. For example, Behe writes, “Protein parts in cellular machines not only have to match their partners, they have to go much further and assemble themselves—a very tricky business indeed” (Edge of Evolution, 125-126). This isn’t tricky at all. If the gene that encodes the MS-ring component protein is artificially introduced into bacteria that don’t normally have any flagellum genes, MS-rings spontaneously pop up all over the cell membrane. It’s the very nature of proteins to interact in specific ways to form more complex structures, but Behe makes it sound like each interaction is the product of special design.


http://biologos.org/uploads/static-content/flagellum_assembly.jpg
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 10:12 am
@wandeljw,
wheres the starter rope?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 10:19 am
@farmerman,
Do you see the ring at the tip of the filament? I think you pull on that.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 03:22 pm
The last two posts don't do proper justice to the utter ridiculousness of the comparison. The bacteria flagellum is more complex than the industrial revolution. And then some.

Ms Applegate is off her pretty little head.

0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 03:35 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Ive seen it happen so often with your brother hillbillies
You have the cheek to call someone else a hillbilly ? Wont that backfire ?
Quote:
Im betting that its because you need to try to constantly speak in a derogatory fashion of people who are better educated than you or who have a skill that you wish youd had.
You have assumed :
1) you have skill
2) that I dont
3) that I wish I was you (hahahahahaha)
4) I was derogatory and not factual
5) You have never done anything to deserve my derogatory response
6) You are better educated than me.....
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 03:45 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
You have assumed :
1) you have skill Not an assumpion , its a fact
2) that I dontsee above
3) that I wish I was you (hahahahahaha) first youd need a skill
4) I was derogatory and not factual your history supports my claim
5) You have never done anything to deserve my derogatory responseI know you dont appreciate having your mistakes shown in public, does that count ?
6) You are better educated than me..... without any fear of doubt
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 03:46 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Well, you got it half right.
Which half ? What do whales have to do with my example ? They went the other way, losing their legs. Did you understand or not ?
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 03:49 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Which half ? What do whales have to do with my example ? They went the other way, losing their legs. Did you understand or not ?
Duuuuhhhh. Its the environment stupid. Legs, or lak thereof are an adaptation. You were talking about edaphics and geography silly.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 04:04 am
@farmerman,
Slow down on the drinking...I asked which half was right and you say the environment...thank God you dont have to teach.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 04:19 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
If you want to understand evolution it involves gradual change to an environment producing gradual change in species when suddenly there is an opening for expansion. An example is the development of legs before moving onto land. Suddenly a whole new opportunity was available to a species that had legs.
Heres your very statement in case your swenility has advanced past being able to wipe yourself.
You were talking as if the organisms went and "ventured" into the new environment. It was much simpler, the environments were rapidly changing around them so they evolved or went extinct.

Ats ok ANUS, when I teach, you learn.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 06:52 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
You were talking as if the organisms went and "ventured" into the new environment. It was much simpler, the environments were rapidly changing around them so they evolved or went extinct.


How rapidly? Anything of the order with which the grey squirrel is replacing the red squirrel in the British Isles? Both types having legs to start with. No legs to legs is the sort of change a kid could understand as long as the change is asserted to have been poofed so that the absence of intermediate stages in the record needn't be considered bearing in mind that quarter legs or even three-quarter legs would be a bit dangerous.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 09:16 am
UPDATE ON STUDY PUBLISHED IN BIOLOGY LETTERS JOURNAL
Quote:
Darwin wrong—again??
(Jerry Coyne, Why Evolution Is True Blog, August 26, 2010)

You may have seen a small flurry of reports this week about a science paper showing that “Darwin was wrong.” The paper wasn’t a creationist or ID screed, however—it was a paper in a good science journal (Biology Letters) by a crack team of paleontologists from the UK and Canada (Sarda Sahney, Michael Benton, and Paul Ferry). What did the paper say? Did it really show that Darwin was wrong? I’m here to answer your questions.

What did the paper say? It reported a correlation in the fossil record between the number of tetrapods (four-legged vertebrates) existing at different times and the number of ecological ” modes of life” those species adopted, all over the 400-million-year period since vertebrates colonized the land. To be exact, it divided up that time period into 66 sub-periods, and in each sub-period the authors totted up the number of tetrapod families that were represented by fossils and the number of modes of life they adopted.

The authors defined a “mode of life” as the ecology of a species that fit into one of three body size categories (length less than 15 cm, between 15 and 150 cm, and greater than 150 cm), one of 16 diet categories (browser, nectar, molluscs, carrion, and so on), and one of 6 habitat categories (marine, arboreal, subterranean, and so on). This gave 288 potential modes of life (3 x 16 x 6), only 75 of which were actually seen.

The authors interpret the tight fit between biodiversity (number of families) and ecological diversity (number of modes of life seen among those families) to mean that what drove tetrapod diversity over this period was open niche space: ecological opportunities that had not yet been realized. They oppose this to another explanation that, they say, their data did not support: diversification was driven not by the availability of ecological space, but by competition. The competition theory would, say the authors, predict that as organisms began to lose elbow room, they would simply subdivide their already-occupied “modes of life” into finer ones. If competition drove diversification, then, you wouldn’t see such a tight correlation between modes of life and diversity.

Is this interpretation correct? I’m not so sure. The problem is that it might not be possible to separate the “force” of competition from the selective pressure to occupy new niches. After all, animals may be driven to adopt new modes of life by competition itself. The occupation of the land by ancestral fish may, for example, have been the result of selection to reduce competition for prey by finding a nice new place with lots of prey (insects) and fewer competititors. I don’t think that showing a correlation between “modes of life” and “number of families” tells us that competition did not play a big role in driving that diversity. In other words, I am not convinced that, at least from the fossil data, you can separate competition from ecological opportunity.

Also, it’s possible that some of the correlation is an artifact. It may be—and I’m not sure of this because I’m not a paleobiologist—that different taxonomic families are partially recognized by large differences in characters like body size and adaptations to diet or habitat. In that case you only get a new family when there’s a sufficiently large difference in what we’d recognize as a “mode of life.” This would be true regardless of the evolutionary force driving the difference. And to the extent that this is the case, it devalues the correlation as a way to recognize process.

This doesn’t mean the paper is bad. Far from it—it’s a very good (and laborious!) correlation between ecology and diversity, and the correlations between them do demand explanation. I’m just not sure if the authors’ answer is the right one.

Where did the “Darwin was wrong” stuff come from? It comes from the notion that Darwin saw competition as a major cause of ecological diversity. There is some justification for this: in The Origin, for example, the only figure (the famous “tree of life”) shows an increase in diversity over time, with Darwin attributing this to competition between species for niche space. His “principle of divergence” maintained that organisms inhabiting a small area would always be competing with each other, and would benefit by seizing on slightly different niches to reduce that competition. A grass, for example, might inhabit soils of different moisture content to avoid competing for space with other grasses.

We shouldn’t think, though, that Darwin saw competition as the overweening force in promoting biological diversity. In The Origin he adduces other factors, including simple adaptation to physical factors (“a plant on the edge of a desert is said to struggle for life against the drought”), and to biotic features like predators and parasites. I think that Darwin may have seen biotic factors as a whole (which include but are not limited to competition), as important drivers of diversity, and emphasized them so that his readers would see that natural selection didn’t solely promote responses to the physical, non-biotic environment.

So did the paper show that Darwin was wrong? Hardly. As I said above, I don’t think the authors ruled out competition as an important force in ecological diversity. Indeed, you could almost construe the data as supporting Darwin, who emphasized throughout The Origin that the more different species were, the better their chances of leaving descendants. (See pp. 111-125 of the first edition of The Origin for this view.) He emphasizes, for instance, that plants have a better chance of invading a new area if they were already quite different from the species that were already there.

But of course Darwin was wrong about many things. Nobody pretends that the man was a god, or omniscient. He was dead wrong, for instance, about genetics. We know a lot more about biology now than we did in Darwin’s time, and we can see that his ideas were often incomplete or incorrect. So it’s bizarre to see every modern discovery through a lens of either supporting or refuting his ideas. If we did that, every paper in genetics could be sold to science journalists as showing that Darwin was wrong about inheritance! We’ve moved on. It’s amazing how right Darwin was—that’s one of the reasons he’s a hero to many of us—but, like all scientists, his ideas get supplanted and revised.

Why did the press sell the paper this way? Hype, pure and simple. A paper on taxonomic diversity over time gets a lot more interest if it can be said to disprove Darwin. I suppose there’s some residual anti-evolution or anti-Darwin sentiment in all this.

Who’s responsible for this hype? I’d like to think it was just the press, for they always love a controversy. But I’m curious how all these different journalists managed to hit on the same Darwin-was-wrong hook. Are a lot of science journalists really conversant enough with Darwin to immediately and independently see a Biology Letters paper as refuting his ideas? Well, maybe one of them did it and was copied by the others. But I wonder whether the authors, or the authors’ universities, or even the journal, issued a press release that sold the paper as a “Darwin refuter.”
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 11:00 am
@wandeljw,
Coyne has always been an "adaptation firster". This hypothesis is quite obvious and fits the facts for evolution of genera and higher. Competition among species seems to be absent in the fossil record
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 11:28 am
@wandeljw,
Perhaps fm will provide us with the method used to arrive at the station known as "The Paper". After his remarks yesterday about "quote mining" we can only assume that such a method was not in operation.

"The Paper" says things, reports things and, wonder of wonders to be exact, it divided up that time period into 66 sub-periods. After which the authors got going totting up. No doubt the salary cheques for sitting at a computer quote mining for a few years were an important aspect of the totting up process.

And what does it all have to do with the moral and ethical challenge to the teaching of an amoral, deterministic theory to adolescents very few of whom have any interest in it or any use for it in their future economic roles?

Why won't anti-IDers answer that question? Are they running scared into the comforting arms of Mommy Ignore. Again.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 11:34 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Indeed, you could almost construe the data as supporting Darwin, who emphasized throughout The Origin that the more different species were, the better their chances of leaving descendants.


Perhaps somebody will explain the lightning fast, in Darwinian timescales, takeover of Britain by grey squirrels exterminating red ones. There is not much difference between the two.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 11:36 am
@wandeljw,
What exactly is your point wande. You seem to be randomly quote mining from any internet source you can find which uses the word "evolution".
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 12:07 pm
@wandeljw,
I've been wondering if the authors of their own salary cheques divided the time period in 66 parts because they were familiar with--

Quote:
HERE IS WISDOM=66//AND HIS NUMBER IS=66///SPIRIT OF GOD=66///DIE AND TELL ABOUT IT=66 LIFE AFTER DEATH=66 RESURRECTION=66//THE HONEST TRUTH=66 THE WHOLE TRUTH=66 THE ALMIGHTY SATAN=66 RULER OF EARTH=66 THE TIME IS AT HAND=66=6+6=12 and half=6 add 12 to 6=18:6,6,6.//// saint=18 avatar=18 love=18 come=18 I AM THE LORD OF HOSTS BEHOLD HOSTS=18:6,6,6 HOLY,HOLY HOLY=6,6,6 HOLY=24=2+4=6 TRUTH=24,FOR HOLY IS THE TRUTH



 

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