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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 01:43 pm
@farmerman,
One doesn't do "more and more the key" fm. A key is a key. There's no part measure. A key grinder has not made a key until it will turn the lock. You're allowing for a margin of unknown territory, as well you might. It's nothing but a hope of your's masquerading as a great leap forward. It is devious. Irreducible complexity resides in that margin and always will because at some point you are reduced by the limitations of scientific instrumentation to metaphors. You use a lot of those you know.

Quote:
Yet, Im sure there will be many who find that the denial of all this evidence best serves their worldview.


What's your world view fm?

I don't suppose you have the bottle to follow Dostoievsky's logic--

Quote:
Man simply invented God in order not to kill himself. That is the summary of universal history down to this moment.


Quote:
Consider that human existence is an utter absurdity without faith in immortality.


Quote:
Since I consider this comedy perpetrated by nature altogether stupid....I deem it humiliating for me to deign to play it........


His hero, Kirilov, is stuck with this stuff because he "will not be had". Count the number of refusals to be had that these threads exhibit. Not being a sucker is a desperate need for many.

Quote:
I shall kill myself in order to assert my insubordination, my new and dreadful liberty.


The idea there is that escapism is a cop out.

Quote:
If God does not exist, I am god.


Yet here you are waiting at a traffic light and filing your tax returns--where's the glory? Blurted out I suppose when coralled behind a piece of tape at the golf shouting "get in the hole".

Kirilov's suicide note is a drawing of a face with its tongue stuck out.

Quote:
The attribute of my divinity is independence.


Quote:
I am unhappy because I am obliged to assert my freedom.


Lucid indifference and renunciation of prestige are not your bag. By some distance. "COOL" you ain't. You just use the word as you do many others as if your usage ascribes the characteristics to yourself. You paint your portrait in hollow words.

So what is your world view. What is that served by--"Vain science"? You spend so much time demolishing that of others you escape describing your own.


0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 02:39 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Speaking of the denial of evidence and gungasnake shows up.

I think Gunga just saw a good opportunity to insert one of his standard cut/paste items from his archives of such material.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 03:27 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Don't forget the dinosaur living deep in the African jungle somewhere. I don't recall the exact location these days.

It's waiting for Speilberg to make it an offer....
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 04:09 pm
@jeeprs,
$ 1.000.000
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 05:06 pm
We have again arrived at talking loudly to drown out the awkward questions. It's a technique well brought up ladies have employed down the ages.

edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 05:09 pm
@spendius,
When does the first awkward question arrive?
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2010 03:03 am
@edgarblythe,
Read the thread ed. Everytime you see a question ignored or evaded you have found one. There are a lot.

Odd how you "respond" to that post rather than my previous one.
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2010 04:04 am
@edgarblythe,
Are we in an phase where we start using our full mental capacities ? Do we learn to proces information intuitively ? Is Manking forming a symbiotic relation with the WWW?
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2010 09:36 am
Quote:
Intelligent Design Creationists Abuse Science and Victims of the Holocaust
(Eric Michael Johnson, The Huffington Post, July 6, 2010)

77 years ago (on July 14, 1933) a sterilization law was passed in Nazi Germany, known as Gesetz zur Verhutung erbkranken Nachwuchses (Law for the Prevention of Genetically Diseased Offspring). Any German was a target if they were found to be suffering from a range of perceived hereditary ailments, such as congenital mental deficiency, schizophrenia, manic-depressive insanity, epilepsy, Huntington's chorea, blindness, deafness, any severe hereditary deformity, or even alcoholism. The law ultimately led to an estimated 400,000 people being involuntarily sterilized in pursuit of this national goal of "racial hygiene," to eliminate handicapped descendants.

Creationists are fond of laying the blame for Nazi eugenics on Charles Darwin. They insist that his materialist argument that humans evolved from animals and his conception of natural selection inspired the Nazis to implement a widespread policy of artificial selection within the Fatherland. However, these claims are as baseless as was the so-called "science" that the Nazis employed.

The latest example of this ignorance disguised as revelation was recently published on The Huffington Post by a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute, David Klinghoffer. The Discovery Institute is a self-avowed propaganda vehicle whose stated goal is to "teach the controversy" of intelligent design creationism. This approach was determined to be "a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory" in US federal court despite the Discovery Institute's strong advocacy. Even the Templeton Foundation, the largest proponent seeking a connection between religion and science, has disavowed intelligent design as little more than "a political movement."

In his post, Klinghoffer claims the following:
"Darwin elaborated a picture of how the world works, how creatures war with each other for survival thus selecting out the fittest specimens and advancing the species. In this portrait of animal life, man is no exception. Any animal that strives to preserve the weak, as man does, is committing racial suicide. 'Thus the weak members of civilized societies propagate their kind,' Darwin wrote in The Descent of Man, a policy 'highly injurious to the race of man.' Hitler did nothing more than translate the competition of species into obsessively racial terms."

This is not the first time creationists have attempted this line of attack. Another Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute, William Dembski, claimed in 2008:
"The Nazi emphasis on proper breeding, racial purity, and weeding out defectives come from taking Darwin's theory seriously and applying it at the level of society. Yes, Darwin himself did not take these such steps, but Galton and Haeckel, his contemporaries, saw where this was going and did."

Jonathan Wells, devotee of Unification Church founder Sun Myung Moon, writes:
"Darwinism's connection with eugenics, abortion and racism is a matter of historical record. And the record is not pretty."

Islamic creationist Harun Yahya similarly insists:
"The eugenics, euthanasia, forced sterilization, concentration camps, racial purity and gas chambers of the mid-20th century emerged as a result of the Darwin-Haeckel-Hitler coalition, representing the worst and most ruthless cruelty in the history of humanity."

Taken together this would be a damning indictment, if there were actually any truth to their claims. The main connections that all these authors make between Darwinism and eugenics is that Francis Galton, an early proponent of eugenics, was Darwin's cousin and that Ernst Haeckel, a German biologist who championed evolution and maintained a long correspondence with the English naturalist, was a primary source for Nazi eugenic policies.

The strength of their arguments quickly fall apart, however, once they are given a few moments thought. The Galton connection is quite obviously baseless, for surely no one can be held responsible for something their cousin promotes (especially since Galton didn't even invent the term eugenics until a year after Darwin's death and Darwin specifically condemned any policy that would "neglect the weak and helpless"). Furthermore, not that it matters, but Galton was merely Darwin's half-cousin since they shared the same grandfather, Erasmus Darwin, but had different grandmothers.

The second claim, about Haeckel's foundation for Nazi race biology, is simply wrong. According to University of Chicago historian Robert J. Richards, in a recent anthology:
"This charge, which attempts to link Haekel's convictions with the Nazi's particular brand of racism, suffers from the inconvenience of having absolutely no foundation."

This idea was initially drawn from Daniel Gasman whose 1971 book Scientific Origins of National Socialism placed Haeckel at the center of the philosophical foundation of Nazi ideology. Richards has excoriated this research (see, for example, his paper Ernst Haeckel's Alleged Anti-Semitism and Contributions to Nazi Biology, in the journal Biological Theory). In his research Richards has demonstrated that Haeckel was not a proponent of a pre-Nazi racist biology and, even if he had been, the Nazi's rejected his work totally.

The reality is that, while one German academic named Heinz Brucher did argue that Haeckel's Darwinism meshed with Hitler's racial attitudes, this view was immediately quashed by the guardians of party doctrine. Gunther Hecht, official representative for the National Socialist Party's Department of Race-Politics (Rassenpolitischen Amt der NSDAP), insisted in the Reich's official scientific journal:
"The party and its representatives must not only reject a part of the Haeckelian conception--other parts of it have occasionally been advanced--but, more generally, every internal party dispute that involves the particulars of research and the teachings of Haeckel must cease."

The reason for this rejection may have been the fact that Haeckel stood out among his contemporaries for his expression of Judenfreundschaft (friendliness toward Jews) or because of his criticisms of the military during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871. A more important reason is probably the fact that Nazi racial views had no connection with specific evolutionary concepts like transmutation of species or the animal origins of human beings. As Richards concludes:
"The perceived materialism of Darwinian biology and Haeckelian monism deterred those who cultivated the mystical ideal of a transcendence of will. Pseudoscientific justifications for racism would be ubiquitous in the early twentieth century, and Hitler's own mad anti-Semitism hardly needed support from evolutionary theorists of the previous century."

There was no connection between Darwin and Hitler, even when attempting to make the link indirectly. As for American eugenics, I would encourage Klinghoffer to peruse Christine Rosen's book Preaching Eugenics, in which she points out that during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries "the Bible became the most popular cultural reference point" for promoting the eugenics movement. But I suspect that this history doesn't fit with the Discovery Institute's political agenda.

The Nazi policies enacted three-quarters of a century ago this month were certainly bad enough, we don't need to spread the blame onto those who had no connection with them. Creationists do a poor service to the memory of Holocaust victims by using their deaths in a politically motivated attack against science. David Klinghoffer, his fellow creationists, and those who give them a platform should be ashamed of themselves for pushing and allowing a tactic rejected by a US federal court judge as "breathtaking inanity" should be strongly criticized.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2010 10:53 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Quote:
Are we in an phase where we start using our full mental capacities ? Do we learn to proces information intuitively ? Is Manking forming a symbiotic relation with the WWW?


You can't expect any anti-IDers to answer those questions sweepie. They started using their full mental capacities a long time ago and they don't believe in intuition.

Your other question turns on what "forming" means. It's a dynamic word. New worlds are being formed in the dark spaces behind the sun. So I suppose you could say that Mankind or Manking is forming a symbiotic relationship with the WWW but I think Womankind or Ladyqueen is ahead of us.

The whole traditional idea of the ladies withdrawing into the sitting-room when the port is being handed round so that the men can discuss realistically how to make things better for their womenfolk is turned on its head with the WWW. And things were made better for the womenfolk. Whether allowing them to particpate in the conversation all the time will ensure the improvement continues is a moot point. And a sore one. Women are now being ordered to get a job as soon as their youngest starts school which would have shocked my mother and all my aunties. A large number have jobs long before that.

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2010 11:17 am
@wandeljw,
And recall that Hitler, in Mein Kampf preached his belief of "Young earth CReationism".

From Hitler’s Tischgespraeche for 1942
Quote:
‘Woher nehmen wir das Recht zu glauben, der Mensch sei nicht von Uranfaengen das gewesen , was er heute ist? Der Blick in die Natur zeigt uns, dass im Bereich der Pflanzen und Tiere Veraenderungen und Weiterbildungen vorkommen. Aber nirgends zeigt sich innherhalb einer Gattung eine Entwicklung von der Weite des Sprungs, den der Mensch gemacht haben muesste, sollte er sich aus einem affenartigen Zustand zu dem, was er ist, fortgebildet haben.’


".Where can we have the right to believe that man was not like he is today from (his )beginning

If we just look at nature it shows us that shanges only occur in the (kingdoms) of plants and (lower) animals. Nowhere do we see a leap that Man must hqave made if he was supposedly advanced from a gorilla to what he is now"


Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2010 11:21 am
@farmerman,
Was that not recreation for der Jugend ? Healthy life and so on ... Question Reading Nietscge all night long ?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2010 01:58 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
Jugend sounds like when the pint glass is empty. I'll try it on a barmaid tonight.

But I don't see the two translations fm gives as being proof that Hitler was a YECist. It's a tautology anyway.

Hitler was not refuting Darwin in general but only in regard to man and which his theological principles demanded. He was a consummate politician and could not afford to alienate Christians. His words get him out of a bind for his less well-endowed audience as Sweepie suggests. They are sophistry. He was selling pride after all. And pride at the time was as attractive as a foaming pint of John Smith's Extra Smooth is to a man who has staggered out of a burning desert.

fm always ignores human desire. Hitler couldn't afford sterile facts when making emotional appeals.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2010 02:08 pm
@farmerman,
Hitlers Tischgespraechen during the WWII period were still giving off his Christian upbringing. Guys like gungasnake would have us believe that Hitler had to renounce his Christian beliefs ferom Mein Kampf to take up Darwinian principles. Obviously the one I quoted from the war years shows us that Hitler wasnt just initially posing his beliefs to gain aupport. In 1942 he was just past the high water mark of his "career" so he had no fear of any Christian mass repudiation.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2010 02:17 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
In 1942 he was just past the high water mark of his "career" so he had no fear of any Christian mass repudiation.


I don't buy that assertion. And it wasn't the masses he feared at that time so much as the elites. And why risk it with nothing to gain?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2010 05:08 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
When does the first awkward question arrive?


fm wrote-

Quote:
I recall spendis latest attempt at answering panzade when pan was just having fun and spendi flew just beneath the arc of the post .


To which I responded-

Quote:
Where was that fm? I'm interested in my having flown "just beneath the arc " of pan's post then I can learn from my mistakes and not do it again.


That's not been answered.

Okay ed. It's a regular feature. If you haven't noticed you must be wearing self-comforting blinkers.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2010 05:12 pm
It was an awkward question you see because fm just made it up and has nothing to back it up with. And has proved it. Empirically.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2010 07:11 pm
@farmerman,
User ignored (view)
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Jul, 2010 03:35 am
@farmerman,
There you go then. Daren't even risk seeing an awkward question. And has a need to inform us all of the fact.

What could be less scientific?
Pepijn Sweep
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 10 Jul, 2010 03:36 am
@spendius,
Saying I miss PF mucho soms
0 Replies
 
 

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