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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 06:19 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
He probably would say that, but there is no logical connection between the corruption of youth and the theory of evolution. Others have argued that religion poisons young minds.


well here's a question, though. Grant that the theory of biological evolution is indeed a scientific theory, similar to Newton's laws, etc. If we indeed devise a purely scientific explanation of our existence, from where do we derive moral law?

Religious myths, even if understood as myths, nevertheless imply a relationship between the human and the natural order. In the Christian tradition, this relationship is one of kinship with the author of all that is.

By contrast, scientific laws are not concerned with ethics or morals in the least - neither the law of gravity nor the motion of bodies, nor any other type of scientific law have any bearing upon human ethics or morals.

So if we say that evolutionary theory is a complete account of the existence of h. sapiens, isn't the traditional basis of social morality and ethical law called into question on this account?

It might be quite possible to derive a moral code from another source. We are often told that science only accepts things on proof, and relies on experimental method and so on. So what would be the basis for a 'scientific morality' that would be as all-encompassing as the religious view?

Or is it a matter for each individual to decide? And on what basis does an individual make the decision?
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 06:19 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Others have argued that religion poisons young minds.


That's fair enough. There is a case to be made but to what extent is it based on individual experience? If there are poisonous teachers of religion there are also poisonous teachers of science. I've met some.

And one might subjectively assert that religion poisons young minds in order to escape from the inhibition of certain behaviour which religion demands is inhibited. It is certainly in the interest of media, big business and the legal profession that those behaviours, and you know what they are by now, are allowed to rampage. So there's a powerful coalition which will jump all over the idea that religion poisons young minds and will latch on to individual incidents to prove it.

An educational system is not an incident except maybe in a Spenglerian world where whole cultures themselves might be considered so. In a Darwinian world all extinct species can be considered to be incidents as can the creation of the solar system. Even extant species, by scientific predictability, might be considered to be incidents waiting for their destiny to be completed.

And what do we replace religious belief with in a society where 90% of the population hold on to some sort of religious belief. If it comforts them it comforts them and taking it away either discomforts them or science has to fill the breech.

We are not in a black and white situation.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 06:23 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
but there is no logical connection between the corruption of youth and the theory of evolution.


There is no such thing as "corruption of the youth" in the theory of evolution. There are only instinctual drives dealing with the weather.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 06:41 am
@jeeprs,
Quote:
So what would be the basis for a 'scientific morality' that would be as all-encompassing as the religious view?


Obviously it would be what the scientific elite said it was. It would necessarily be a two-tier system. Behind the walls of the NCSE and outside of them.

Never forget that farmerman alluded to "re-education camps" for the superstitious. I certainly won't.

I wrote a song about it 30 odd years ago called Happy Landings. I'll see if I can find it and post it for you all.

0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 09:17 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

wandel, \you shouldn't be blaiming \isaac for your sloppy walking...


Hi, CI! Welcome back!

I can not help blaming Isaac Newton whenever I fall (even if it is because I am drunk). The theory of gravity needs to be blamed if people are also blaming the theory of evolution. Smile
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 09:45 am
@jeeprs,
Personally, I do not believe that science is a replacement for religion or for a philosphical examination of ethics.

There are a few infamous scientists (for example, Dawkins) who have declared that science makes religion obsolete. Most scientists disagree with that. Kenneth Miller (a biology professor who served as an expert witness for court cases defending the teaching of evolution) criticized Dawkins for using science to proselytize atheism. Science should be used to explain how nature works and stop there. Science should not be used as a dogmatic worldview.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 09:48 am
@wandeljw,
oy oy, nw somebody tell Thomas, he doesnt get it.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 11:21 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
. The theory of gravity needs to be blamed if people are also blaming the theory of evolution.


Henry the 8-wived VIII, when being persuaded by his courtiers that one of his marriages was to England's advantage, the Lady was reportedly extremely plain and had a number of other unfortunate dispositions which most of us are familiar enough with to require no further elaboration, replied as his basic argument against the match, there being carefully chosen serving wenches and Maids of Honour trip-tropping all over the palaces, "I can get on but who's going to lift me off."

Here we have a conjunction between the law of gravity and the law of evolution contradicted.

Unfortunately Sir Applefall and Sir Taffrailwanker had not completed their monumental scientific studies at the time so His Highness had to rely on a poetic interpretation of events. Sexual selection at the diplomatic level is best treated poetically I should think.

But I don't think wande that anybody is blaming the theory of evolution. A theory is not a blameworthy entity. Teaching the theory is a different matter although it might be harmless enough under circumstances in which those aspects of it which are what lead some to think it dangerous are left out. Then it wouldn't be dangerous. Any teachers who object to that on the grounds that truth is truth, fact is fact and science is science can be run out of town on a pole.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 11:34 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Science should not be used as a dogmatic worldview.


Using "should not" is dogmatic. But whether some teachers of a certain persuasion will take any notice of such a dogmatic attitude, which they might say is knee-trembling, is another matter. There are a lot of teachers and the atheists have their share of Freshwaters. Probably more than their share.

When you focus attention on one lesson Mr Freshwater gave you need to be ready to focus on all the other lessons or you might be accused of pulling rabbits out of hats. We had an Anglican priest who used religious ecstasy to help some of his congregation to achieve multiple orgasms. I think he was transferred to systemising the archives.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 11:38 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

oy oy, nw somebody tell Thomas, he doesnt get it.


I have tried to explain many things to Thomas, but he is even more "German" than I am. Smile
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 11:42 am
@wandeljw,
Himmel!
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 11:49 am
My thoughts on ethics and religion are not the same as with many atheists, but what I think about that has no relation to the subject of teaching evolution. To me there is no problem separating the two.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 12:16 pm
@edgarblythe,
Thats why I ignore spendi. Hes like Thomas just from another viewpoint. He cant understand the separation dict and its importance to curricula.
However, I dont compare thomas and spendi, Thomas is sharp on the uptake. spendi doesnt get most of the issues of Us culture.
I recall spendis latest attempt at answering panzade when pan was just having fun and spendi flew just beneath the arc of the post .
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 12:22 pm
I gave spendi room to make his points. He made a few, missed a number of others, and has no real intent to be constructive. I am done with him as a 'scientis Rolling Eyes t.'
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 12:27 pm
wandeljw wrote:
There are a few infamous scientists (for example, Dawkins) who have declared that science makes religion obsolete. Most scientists disagree with that.

How do you know that? Have you read a poll of scientists on this topic or something?

wandeljw wrote:
Kenneth Miller (a biology professor who served as an expert witness for court cases defending the teaching of evolution) criticized Dawkins for using science to proselytize atheism.

Kenneth Miller, in his book Finding Darwin's God, uses science to argue that it is compatible with religion. Richard Dawkins, in his book The God Delusion, uses science, among other things, to argue that it's not---that, at the very least, state-of-the-art science leaves god with nothing to do. Why is it alright for Miller to argue his case but not alright for Dawkins to argue his?

farmerman wrote:
oy oy, nw somebody tell Thomas, he doesnt get it.

I thought we agreed to disagree on this?
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 12:40 pm
@Thomas,
This is amusing (although unintentional). Are you proving the comment I made to farmerman about you?
http://able2know.org/topic/121621-282#post-4272951
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 01:29 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I recall spendis latest attempt at answering panzade when pan was just having fun and spendi flew just beneath the arc of the post .


Where was that fm? I'm interested in my having flown "just beneath the arc " of pan's post then I can learn from my mistakes and not do it again.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 02:50 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
This is amusing (although unintentional). Are you proving the comment I made to farmerman about you?
http://able2know.org/topic/121621-282#post-4272951

I'll let you be the judge of that, but that wasn't the reason I wrote my post. The reason I wrote my post was that I think you're wrong on the merits. So I asked you some skeptical questions to confirm or refute what I think.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 03:10 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Thats why I ignore spendi. Hes like Thomas just from another viewpoint. He cant understand the separation dict and its importance to curricula.


2 assertions.

Of course I can understand the separation dictat but I can't understand how anybody can work it in a Christian world speaking English. Strictly applied, and we are scientific only if we are strict, there are no curricula with it in operation. It paralyses curricula formation. And I can understand its importance to the legal profession and those who wish to write pompous editorials without the need to think let alone think critically.

There is obviously no need to think critically about the separation dictat in order to spout nonsense whilst hidden behind an impossible phrase just as there is no need to think critically about evolution or science in order to claim those as one's badges of rank. Phooey!!

"Vain science!" Laurence Sterne said.

There's 3 more assertions in the rest of the ego-stroking crap.

0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2010 03:28 pm
@wandeljw,
Thankyou. I feel the same way.
0 Replies
 
 

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