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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 08:22 am
@farmerman,
Well-your last post was more like a drunken hobo shouting at taxis than the post of mine which it was a putative response to.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 08:50 am
@spendius,
I take you off ignore in honor of all these new philosophy pholks (who I figured that you would bond with immediately) and what do I get, more of the same old spendi-farts of yesterdays world.
I do hope we overwhelm a self help psych line and annex it as an addition to our Lebensraum. MAybe they would be able to assist you in your self esteem issues.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 10:11 am
@farmerman,
Not again. Claiming you are taking me off Ignore when you never had me on it in the first place, apart from a couple of indignation thrumms early on, which told me a lot about how far you take whistling through the teeth. You're no Humphrey Bogart.

It's been a snow job for the readers to try to avoid making it obvious that you have no answers to the important questions. Insults serve the same useless purpose, a deliberate oxyunohoo, or going off down some road we've all been down before a good few times using a few different words now and again.

I don't know who on earth you can be referring to as the "new philosophy pholks". I haven't seen any philosophy around here not counting some of my stuff. And I only bond with females. Not them all mind you. I'm not as far gone as Dylan yet.

As far as your Lebensraum is concerned there's a long way to go. We did a gleam in the eye of a clever madman back in the 30s. It cost a sodding fortune.

The argument is about one thing and one thing only. Whether to buy into materialism, ordinary shares, preference stock, options, (until we buy in I mean) and other instruments of management. There's no half the caboodle.
Sperm banks where uxoriousness can be selected for. Or more advanced ones I should say. It's easy to predict.

You need to sell the way of life we get when we all buy into materialism, using the word philosophically. It's all just a frontshow you're putting on. Lead us not into temptation. Where's the beef as ol' George said. I know he lost but that Billie could charm the birds out of the trees.

The Jesuits said to catch them early. That's why the schools are the battleground. It's not a sudden thing. It's like a wave. A wedge.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 12:29 pm
@spendius,
stop bitching and get to some kind of argument or Ill put you back on ignore .
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 05:04 pm
@farmerman,
You don't do argument fm. You do one-way megaphones. Using Ignore proves that scientifically.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 05:28 pm
@spendius,
Why what ever are you babbling about spendi? HAve you had a bad bottle of Pilsner?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 04:55 am
@farmerman,
Carry on fm. Don't mind me. I'm happy to see you display a 100% unscientific nature as often as possible.

Whoever told you that you are a scientific methodologist was getting something out of it.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 01:42 pm
LOUISIANA UPDATE
Quote:
Jindal's and Vitter's anti-science policies
(Charles Kincade, Shreveport Times, Opinion Essay, June 19, 2010)

It is indeed ironic that Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal and U.S. Sen. David Vitter, of Louisiana, are seeking the brightest minds in science and engineering to help extricate our state from the impending environmental disaster that has resulted from the Deepwater Horizon explosion and oil spill.

The irony is because Jindal and Vitter have built their careers by pandering to large anti-science constituencies in our state. And while this pandering has brought political and electoral success to both Jindal and Vitter, it will condemn our students to instruction in junk science and dumb down public school curricula.

It already has brought our state national ridicule. And, most importantly, it will, unless changed, render us and future generations unable to deal with future challenges, which will increasingly be more scientific and technical in nature.

In 2008, Jindal supported and signed an anti-science bill that many believed to be a stealth creationism bill. That bill, which became the Louisiana Science Education Act (LSEA), was a thinly veiled effort to permit the teaching of religious creationism in the science classroom alongside evolution. The bill was roundly criticized by the scientific community.

In fact, one of the nation's most respected scientific groups, the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology (SICB), took the unusual step and boycotted Louisiana due to the anti-science measure and held its annual convention in Utah instead of New Orleans.

The LSEA was condemned in a cover story in the January 2009 edition of Scientific American by Glenn Branch and Eugenie C. Scott. In that article, the authors conclude that because of the Jindal-backed bill, Louisiana students will be scientifically illiterate. They go on to note that "scientific literacy will be indispensable for workers, consumers and policymakers in a future dominated by medical, biotechnological and environmental concerns."

That future is now. The current Gulf disaster implicates all these concerns. And Jindal's educational policy handicaps future generations' ability to deal with inevitable future crises.

In 2007, Vitter quietly earmarked $100,000 in a federal spending bill for Louisiana Family Forum, a Christian group that had opposed the teaching of evolution in public schools. Louisiana Family Forum was the prime mover and primary proponent of the Louisiana Science Education Act.

Vitter's earmark, which specified payment of $100,000 of federal tax dollars to the anti-evolution Louisiana Family Forum "to develop a plan to promote better science education," drew national outrage when it came to light. Vitter withdrew his earmark to Louisiana Family Forum amid media suggestions that the earmark was payback by Vitter to his political allies for the political cover the group had provided Vitter following the revelation of Vitter's involvement with the D.C. Madam.

The national education report card compiled by American Legislative Exchange Council ranked Louisiana 47th in the nation for education in 2008. Similar surveys have placed Louisiana in similar position, at or near the bottom. The efforts of Jindal and Vitter only make matters worse.

Our dismal education system has and will continue to have obvious effects on our economic viability. But more freighting is the inescapable conclusion that unless the anti-science policies of Jindal, Vitter, et al are corrected, and soon, future generations will be unable to function in the modern world.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 01:48 pm

The big lie which is being promulgated by evolutionists is that there is some sort of a dialectic between evolution and religion. There isn't. In order to have a meaningful dialectic between evolution and religion, you would need a religion which operated on an intellectual level similar to that of evolution, and the only two possible candidates would be voodoo and Rastifari.

The dialectic is between evolution and mathematics. Professing belief in evolution at this juncture amounts to the same thing as claiming not to believe in modern mathematics, probability theory, and logic. It's basically ignorant.

Evolution has been so thoroughly discredited at this point that you assume nobody is defending it because they believe in it anymore, and that they are defending it because they do not like the prospects of having to defend or explain some expect of their lifestyles to God, St. Peter, or some other member of that crowd.

To these people I say, you've still got a problem. The problem is that evolution, as a doctrine, is so overwhelmingly STUPID that, faced with a choice of wearing a sweatshirt with a scarlet letter A for Adulteror, F for Fornicator or some such traditional design, or or a big scarlet letter I for IDIOT, you'd actually be better off sticking with one of the traditional choices because, as Clint Eastwood noted in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly:

God Hates IDIOTS Too...

The best illustration of how stupid evolutionism really is involves trying to become some totally new animal with new organs, a new basic plan for existence, and new requirements for integration between both old and new organs.

Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.

For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together, so that the chances of evolving any of these things by any process resembling evolution (mutations plus selection) would amount to an infinitessimal, i.e. one divided by some gigantic number.

In probability theory, to compute the probability of two things happening at once, you multiply the probabilities together. That says that the likelihood of all these things ever happening, best case, is ten or twelve such infinitessimals multiplied together, i.e. a tenth or twelth-order infinitessimal. The whole history of the universe isn't long enough for that to happen once.

All of that was the best case. In real life, it's even worse than that. In real life, natural selection could not plausibly select for hoped-for functionality, which is what would be required in order to evolve flight feathers on something which could not fly apriori. In real life, all you'd ever get would some sort of a random walk around some starting point, rather than the unidircetional march towards a future requirement which evolution requires.

And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such reature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.

Now, it would be miraculous if, given all the above, some new kind of complex creature with new organs and a new basic plan for life had ever evolved ONCE.

Evolutionism, however (the Theory of Evolution) requires that this has happened countless billions of times, i.e. an essentially infinite number of absolutely zero probability events.

And, if you were starting to think that nothing could possibly be any stupider than believing in evolution despite all of the above (i.e. that the basic stupidity of evolutionism starting from 1980 or thereabouts could not possibly be improved upon), think again. Because there is zero evidence in the fossil record (despite the BS claims of talk.origins "crew" and others of their ilk) to support any sort of a theory involving macroevolution, and because the original conceptions of evolution are flatly refuted by developments in population genetics since the 1950's, the latest incarnation of this theory, Steve Gould and Niles Eldredge's "Punctuated Equilibrium or punc-eek" attempts to claim that these wholesale violations of probabilistic laws all occurred so suddenly as to never leave evidence in the fossil record, and that they all occurred amongst tiny groups of animals living in "peripheral" areas. That says that some velocirapter who wanted to be a bird got together with fifty of his friends and said:

Quote:

Guys, we need flight feathers, and wings, and specialized bones, hearts, lungs, and tails, and we need em NOW; not two years from now. Everybody ready, all together now: OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....


You could devise a new religion by taking the single stupidest doctrine from each of the existing religions, and it would not be as stupid as THAT.

But it gets even stupider.

Again, the original Darwinian vision of gradualistic evolution is flatly refuted by the fossil record (Darwinian evolution demanded that the vast bulk of ALL fossils be intermediates) and by the findings of population genetics, particularly the Haldane dilemma and the impossible time requirements for spreading genetic changes through any sizeable herd of animals.

Consider what Gould and other punk-eekers are saying. Punc-eek amounts to a claim that all meaningful evolutionary change takes place in peripheral areas, amongst tiny groups of animals which develop some genetic advantage, and then move out and overwhelm, outcompete, and replace the larger herds. They are claiming that this eliminates the need to spread genetic change through any sizeable herd of animals and, at the same time, is why we never find intermediate fossils (since there are never enough of these CHANGELINGS to leave fossil evidence).

Obvious problems with punctuated equilibria include, minimally:

  • It is a pure pseudoscience seeking to explain and actually be proved by a lack of evidence rather than by evidence (all the missing intermediate fossils). In other words, the clowns promoting this BS are claiming that the very lack of intermediate fossils supports the theory. Similarly, Cotton Mather claimed that the fact that nobody had ever seen or heard a witch was proof they were there (if you could SEE them, they wouldn't BE witches...) This kind of logic is less inhibiting than the logic they used to teach in American schools. For instance, I could as easily claim that the fact that I'd never been seen with Tina Turner was all the proof anybody should need that I was sleeping with her. In other words, it might not work terribly well for science, but it's great for fantasies...

    http://concerts.ticketsnow.com/Graphics/photos/TinaTurner.jpg

  • PE amounts to a claim that inbreeding is the most major source of genetic advancement in the world. Apparently Steve Gould never saw Deliverance...

  • PE requires these tiny peripheral groups to conquer vastly larger groups of animals millions if not billions of times, which is like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day, for millions of years.

  • PE requires an eternal victory of animals specifically adapted to localized and parochial conditions over animals which are globally adapted, which never happens in real life.

  • For any number of reasons, you need a minimal population of any animal to be viable. This is before the tiny group even gets started in overwhelming the vast herds. A number of American species such as the heath hen became non-viable when their numbers were reduced to a few thousand; at that point, any stroke of bad luck at all, a hard winter, a skewed sex ratio in one generation, a disease of some sort, and it's all over. The heath hen was fine as long as it was spread out over the East coast of the U.S. The point at which it got penned into one of these "peripheral" areas which Gould and Eldredge see as the salvation for evolutionism, it was all over.


The sort of things noted in items 3 and 5 are generally referred to as the "gambler's problem", in this case, the problem facing the tiny group of "peripheral" animals being similar to that facing a gambler trying to beat the house in blackjack or roulette; the house could lose many hands of cards or rolls of the dice without flinching, and the globally-adapted species spread out over a continent could withstand just about anything short of a continental-scale catastrophe without going extinct, while two or three bad rolls of the dice will bankrupt the gambler, and any combination of two or three strokes of bad luck will wipe out the "peripheral" species. Gould's basic method of handling this problem is to ignore it.

And there's one other thing which should be obvious to anybody attempting to read through Gould and Eldridge's BS:



They don't even bother to try to provide a mechanism or technical explaination of any sort for this "punk-eek"


They are claiming that at certain times, amongst tiny groups of animals living in peripheral areas, a "speciation event(TM)" happens, and THEN the rest of it takes place. In other words, they are saying:

Quote:

ASSUMING that Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happens, then the rest of the business proceeds as we have described in our scholarly discourse above!


Again, Gould and Eldridge require that the Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happen not just once, but countless billions of times, i.e. at least once for every kind of complex creature which has ever walked the Earth. They do not specify whether this amounts to the same Abracadabra-Shazaam each time, or a different kind of Abracadabra-Shazaam for each creature.

I ask you: How could anything be stupider or worse than that? What could possibly be worse than professing to believe in such a thing?
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 06:36 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

LOUISIANA UPDATE
Quote:
Jindal's and Vitter's anti-science policies
(Charles Kincade, Shreveport Times, Opinion Essay, June 19, 2010)

It is indeed ironic that Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal and U.S. Sen. David Vitter, of Louisiana, are seeking the brightest minds in science and engineering to help extricate our state from the impending environmental disaster that has resulted from the Deepwater Horizon explosion and oil spill.

...

Our dismal education system has and will continue to have obvious effects on our economic viability. But more freighting is the inescapable conclusion that unless the anti-science policies of Jindal, Vitter, et al are corrected, and soon, future generations will be unable to function in the modern world.



And here's the latest from Lousiana on CNN: "Louisiana lawmakers propose prayer to stop oil disaster" http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/20/gulf.oil.spill/index.html?hpt=T1

That's what Lousiana needs, a whole lot of adults showing the next generation how to gather together and waste their time on something which isn't going to help the situation at all. Perfect.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 08:02 am
@rosborne979,
The Shreveport Times is owned by the Gannet Company.

Quote:
Gannett Company, Inc. (NYSE: GCI) is a publicly-traded media holding company based in the United States. It is the largest U.S. newspaper publisher as measured by total daily circulation. Its assets include the national newspaper USA Today and the weekly USA Weekend. Its largest non-national newspaper is The Arizona Republic in Phoenix. Other large newspapers include The Indianapolis Star, The Cincinnati Enquirer, The Tennessean in Nashville, The Courier-Journal in Louisville, The Des Moines Register, The Honolulu Advertiser, the Detroit Free Press and The News-Press in Fort Myers. Gannett also owns 23 television stations and holds substantial properties in digital media including PointRoll, Ripple6 and ShopLocal.


It is based in Virginia.

We all know what line such entities take and we all know the reasons they do so. Apart from ros I mean.

Quote:
Our dismal education system has and will continue to have obvious effects on our economic viability.


That conclusion is posited on the assertion that "dismal" is a valid word to use in relation to the matter.

Quote:
But more freighting is the inescapable conclusion that unless the anti-science policies of Jindal, Vitter, et al are corrected, and soon, future generations will be unable to function in the modern world.


That's merely pathetic. How on earth will future generations be unable to function? Their existence will mean they are functioning in what will be to them their modern world in which Mr Kincade's world will be not only old fashioned but, if the view he is promoting comes to fruition, ridiculous as well.

If somebody wrote crap like that in one of our newspapers I wouldn't be seen dead posting it on an international forum and dragging my country's reputation down. The idea that our editors think their readers are stupid is something I would seek to hide.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 08:07 am
Quote:
Message from Superintendent Paul G. Pastorek
It starts with a simple belief ... all children can learn.

I am honored to serve as Louisiana’s State Superintendent. As I tend to the complex issues related to public education, I am guided by one key focus -- the 650,000 children enrolled in our public schools and our responsibility to provide them with an educational experience that allows them to thrive throughout their lives.

For decades, like many other states, Louisiana has repeatedly applied failing solutions to improve the ability of public schools to adequately educate our young people, and that impasse still impedes our current effort. However, over the last decade, our state has made great strides in efforts to improve the academic success of students and to eliminate the achievement gap between races and socioeconomic classes. But the potential is even greater, and if we approach our challenges together -- with urgency, energy, determination and knowledge; I am certain we can transform education, our communities, our state and our children’s future.

As we push forward, we are fortunate to have the support of more than 100,000 district and school employees and 600 plus Department employees who contribute daily to the education of our children. I am humbled, inspired and extremely grateful to each of them, as well as the thousands of volunteers, community leaders and government officials who are inspiring greatness in our children through their advocacy and outreach. There is no limit to what we can achieve – even in times of adversity and controversy -- except for what we are unwilling to imagine, believe in or commit ourselves to. In the case of education, I am convinced the great people of Louisiana are committed wholeheartedly and will work tirelessly to cultivate the ideas, intelligence, dreams and promise of our children.


I wonder what Mr Pastorek thinks of the word "dismal".
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 08:50 am
@gungasnake,
Most of your post is the same old Gungacious crap that youve been spewing However let me highlight one item that you said;
Quote:
Punc-eek amounts to a claim that all meaningful evolutionary change takes place in peripheral areas, amongst tiny groups of animals which develop some genetic advantage
Doesnt mean that at all. In fact, youre misrepresenting what punctuated equilibrium was saying. IT WAS NOT A UNIVERSAL MECHANISM at all. "outcompeting" can also read as "outadapting" You forget that most all evolution, as an adaptive mechanism, was expressing changes in an organism that was subjected to a changing environment. When you gripe about "Intermediate fossils and lack thereof" I have several times admonished you for not knowing what the hell you are even talking about . However that doesnt seem to delay your next posts at all.

Oh yeh, last point and I think Ill just move on, I think the word you opened with was "dialogue" not "dialectic". Maybe you meant dialectic but I sorta doubt it.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 09:09 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
The dialectic is between evolution and mathematics. Professing belief in evolution at this juncture amounts to the same thing as claiming not to believe in modern mathematics, probability theory, and logic. It's basically ignorant.

You don't know what you're talking about. Evolution is not only mathematically probable, it's mathematically inevitable.
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 12:12 pm
@rosborne979,
And than there is deevolution which seems to me to be takeing place now.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 02:36 pm
@rosborne979,
Yea, they go hand-in-hand; there's no other way to see them.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 02:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Perhaps somebody will explain what ros meant for which ci. patted him on the back.

Quote:
Evolution is not only mathematically probable, it's mathematically inevitable.


It's just an assertion as it stands. What does it mean?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 03:42 pm
@spendius,
Ros said
Quote:

Evolution is not only mathematically probable, it's mathematically inevitable.


to which spendi responded
Quote:

It's just an assertion as it stands. What does it mean?


Well just do the math spendi.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 04:23 pm
@farmerman,
No. You explain. That was the request. It says "Ask an Expert" and everybody knows what a teeny brain I have.

Your post is not an answer. It is snow. The suspicion arises that you can't explain and neither can ros nor ci.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 04:28 pm
@spendius,
I can't understand how people deal with you guys in the flesh. You just mouth platitudes, assertions and bullshit and one assumes your companions are too polite to snigger in your presence or are completely stupid.
 

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