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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 05:22 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Still--you've got Io. He's easy enough eh? He hasn't got into this yet has he?
HEY ! Have I been insulted ? I am only easy if they have the correct money...I dont give change....as to what I am not into...suffice to say I am not into the things that if I was into would demand a retraction of saying that I am not into them. Furthermore, you, your dog and your barbeque get orf my lawn.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 05:24 pm
@wandeljw,
I enjoy your posts wandeljw...they are thought provoking and apt without wading through the posters bias.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 05:27 pm
@spendius,
Youre just looking to write over somebodies head (without success) in the hope of seeming to have knowledge beyond the ken of we poor dupes of science. You are not impressing anyone here.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 05:28 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Meantime you expect adults to teach kids that illusions are reality
What a miserable scrooge you are...no Santa Claus, no tooth fairy, no Easter Bunny....nothing...just sex, science and harsh reality...it was good enough for your parents to raise you with reality, its good enough for everyone.
Quote:
Adults know they are illusions.
Adults never partake of fantasy do they ? Drugs are just a figment of the imagination...oh, wait...thats not reality either is it ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 05:31 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
You are not impressing anyone here.
You know for someone who's sole pupose in life is a cheer squad, you are not very good at it. He impresses me all the time....mainly with his intelligence, intellect (use of language - so you dont have to look it up) and patience with fools.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 05:35 pm
@Ionus,
I wasn't insulting you Io. But you are a new starter and a lot has gone by which you are unaware of. It is actually a compliment for me to remind you of that because it suggests I have high hopes of you when you get your feet under the table. Few have had that privilege. It was me who shifted Creationists off these threads. There is more than one you know.

They were making it too easy for anti-IDers to run on the same spot they were running on when they first got into long trousers. And you can't dispute that you have facilitated more of the same. So far.

I do value your contributions though. Coaches criticise the best players to get them to reach to higher levels of performance.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 05:39 pm
@Ionus,
You are just easily impressed, I wouldnt make too much of it ANUS.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 05:41 pm
@farmerman,
And I have found you far too interested in declaring your education rather than just proving it by knowledgable and engaging posts, Gomer.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 05:43 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
They (Creationists) were making it too easy for anti-IDers to run on the same spot they were running on when they first got into long trousers. And you can't dispute that you have facilitated more of the same. So far.
How do you suggest anti-IDers be engaged ?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 06:04 pm
@Ionus,
On the consequences of them coming to power, which they will if not stopped, and wrecking the whole shebang.

I've been waiting for a scientific explanation of lingerie for years. Fox News reported a copulation demonstration by two students in a liberal Californian classroom. No doubt the youth of the participants made lingerie un-necessary but what about in adult education classes? I'm making out that lingerie as we know it from studying those historical documents which are concerned with the matter is a function of Christian theology and thus that attacks on Christian teaching is an attack on lingerie. Lingerie exists in no other cultural setting that I know of. The others only bother with "in the raw" which, as you probably know, can be somewhat stark.
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 07:10 pm
@spendius,
That's an idiot's mud smear.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 11:54 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I've been waiting for a scientific explanation of lingerie for years.
I Can explain lingerie. Like most good science, it looks right and has a wow! factor when people see it in all its glory. It also has a simplistic beauty that is hard to imagine but is obvious when you see it.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 04:27 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
And I have found you far too interested in declaring your education rather than just proving it by knowledgable and engaging posts, Gomer.
Thats about as disengenuous a statement as Ive ever seen herein. First I engage you in several topics and try to make it clear that you have had many misconceptions about things like DNA or Radiometric dating techniques, the data behind the big bang, and recently Ive engaged you in art. In each occasion Ive provided you with data and examples and names. You, on the other hand merely go postal and begin really sick tirades (A tendency that seems to me that maybe youve got some PTSD, cause you really are a sick puppy ). Then YOU started the tirade about me being a "Rodman"(Which, in geology, you probably dont know---THe "RODMAN" is the chief of party and the surveyors are just keeping him informed of his location-Hes actually piking the spots). So yes , Im often the RODMAN as COP. And most often I just carry a VLF "Mushroom" which the field crew and "juggies" plot me on a running GPS map. So , by not knowing, youve actually described me pretty good .
AS fvar as education, I only announced this once to try to appeal to some sense of honest debate. ( Looks like you are so angry and lacking in good manners that you have avoided any further topical discussions).
I can easily scroll by you if you engage in your normal sophism. However, when you start making your attempts at some pompous crap in my court, Im gonna challenge you. I notice that, like spendi, whenever youre challenged with real facts, you have a tendency to either get personal or go ballistic.

You are a funny dude though. I guess youre lonely out there so whenever you get an opportunity to spout ****, you jump in with both feet.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 04:57 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
I Can explain lingerie. Like most good science, it looks right and has a wow! factor when people see it in all its glory. It also has a simplistic beauty that is hard to imagine but is obvious when you see it.


On a chap Io it looks ridiculous. And I have had dealings with women who reject lingerie. Most feminisists have no alternative. The feminist philosophy rejects, often with high indignation, that women should pretty themselves up to please men. Only Ladies wear lingerie. It is a Christian phenemenon.

One can be forgiven a smirking fit after seeing some of the Ladies who have gone into bat for the Darwinian cause. They are walking contradictions. They really ought to be appearing before the hearings in the manner that the Venus of Willendorf is represented. (Take a blimp on Google). Their talk of blood clotting in chiclids is obviously an evasion. As is any hearing which allows such evidence credibility.

I presume you agree then that attacking Christianity is an attack on lingerie and thus on Ladies as opposed to female organisms (women). Many Ladies take offence at being referred to as "women" for that very reason. Some writers like to goad them by using "wimmin" instead. But that is getting even more bestial and approaches Schopenaeur's scientific definition of the creature.

The fossil is a fact. The life course of the animal it represents is the truth.

wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 05:26 am
Quote:
Living in denial: Why sensible people reject the truth
(by Debora MacKenzie, New Scientist Magazine, May 19, 2010)

HEARD the latest? The swine flu pandemic was a hoax: scientists, governments and the World Health Organization cooked it up in a vast conspiracy so that vaccine companies could make money.

Never mind that the flu fulfilled every scientific condition for a pandemic, that thousands died, or that declaring a pandemic didn't provide huge scope for profiteering. A group of obscure European politicians concocted this conspiracy theory, and it is now doing the rounds even in educated circles.

This depressing tale is the latest incarnation of denialism, the systematic rejection of a body of science in favour of make-believe. There's a lot of it about, attacking evolution, global warming, tobacco research, HIV, vaccines - and now, it seems, flu. But why does it happen? What motivates people to retreat from the real world into denial?

Here's a hypothesis: denial is largely a product of the way normal people think. Most denialists are simply ordinary people doing what they believe is right. If this seems discouraging, take heart. There are good reasons for thinking that denialism can be tackled by condemning it a little less and understanding it a little more.

Whatever they are denying, denial movements have much in common with one another, not least the use of similar tactics. All set themselves up as courageous underdogs fighting a corrupt elite engaged in a conspiracy to suppress the truth or foist a malicious lie on ordinary people. This conspiracy is usually claimed to be promoting a sinister agenda: the nanny state, takeover of the world economy, government power over individuals, financial gain, atheism.

This common ground tells us a great deal about the underlying causes of denialism. The first thing to note is that denial finds its most fertile ground in areas where the science must be taken on trust. There is no denial of antibiotics, which visibly work. But there is denial of vaccines, which we are merely told will prevent diseases - diseases, moreover, which most of us have never seen, ironically because the vaccines work.

Similarly, global warming, evolution and the link between tobacco and cancer must be taken on trust, usually on the word of scientists, doctors and other technical experts who many non-scientists see as arrogant and alien.

Many people see this as a threat to important aspects of their lives. In Texas last year, a member of a state committee who was trying to get creationism added to school science standards almost said as much when he proclaimed "somebody's got to stand up to experts".

It is this sense of loss of control that really matters. In such situations, many people prefer to reject expert evidence in favour of alternative explanations that promise to hand control back to them, even if those explanations are not supported by evidence.

All denialisms appear to be attempts like this to regain a sense of agency over uncaring nature: blaming autism on vaccines rather than an unknown natural cause, insisting that humans were made by divine plan, rejecting the idea that actions we thought were okay, such as smoking and burning coal, have turned out to be dangerous.

This is not necessarily malicious, or even explicitly anti-science. Indeed, the alternative explanations are usually portrayed as scientific. Nor is it willfully dishonest. It only requires people to think the way most people do: in terms of anecdote, emotion and cognitive short cuts. Denialist explanations may be couched in sciency language, but they rest on anecdotal evidence and the emotional appeal of regaining control.

Greg Poland, head of vaccines at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota and editor in chief of the journal Vaccine, often speaks out against vaccine denial. He calls his opponents "the innumerate" because they are unable to grasp concepts like probability. Instead, they reason based on anecdote and emotion. "People use mental short cuts - 'My kid got autism after he got his shots, so the vaccine must have caused it,'" he says. One emotive story about a vaccine's alleged harm trumps endless safety statistics.

Seth Kalichman, a social psychologist at the University of Connecticut at Storrs, understands this better than most: he spent a year infiltrating HIV denialist groups. Many of the people he met were ordinary and sincere. "Denialism fills some need," he says. "For people with HIV, it is a coping strategy," albeit a maladaptive one.

Kalichman, however, feels that everyday reasoning alone is not enough to make someone a denialist. "There is some fragility in their thinking that draws them to believe people who are easily exposed as frauds," he says. "Most of us don't believe what they say, even if we want to. Understanding why some do may help us find solutions."

He believes the instigators of denialist movements have more serious psychological problems than most of their followers. "They display all the features of paranoid personality disorder", he says, including anger, intolerance of criticism, and what psychiatrists call a grandiose sense of their own importance. "Ultimately, their denialism is a mental health problem. That is why these movements all have the same features, especially the underlying conspiracy theory."

Neither the ringleaders nor rank-and-file denialists are lying in the conventional sense, Kalichman says: they are trapped in what classic studies of neurosis call "suspicious thinking". "The cognitive style of the denialist represents a warped sense of reality, which is why arguing with them gets you nowhere," he says. "All people fit the world into their own sense of reality, but the suspicious person distorts reality with uncommon rigidity."

It is not only similar tactics and psychology that unite denial in its many guises: there are also formal connections between the various movements.

Many denialist movements originate as cynical efforts by corporations to cast doubt on findings that threaten their bottom line. Big Tobacco started it in the 1970s, recruiting scientists willing to produce favourable data and bankrolling ostensibly independent think tanks and bogus grass-roots movements (see "Manufacturing doubt"). One such think tank was The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition (TASSC), set up in 1993 by tobacco company Philip Morris (American Journal of Public Health, vol 91, p 1749). TASSC didn't confine itself to tobacco for long. After getting funds from Exxon, it started casting doubt on climate science.

Such links between denial movements are not unusual. A number of think tanks in the US and elsewhere have been funded by both the oil and tobacco industries and have taken denialist positions on smoking and warming.

TASSC folded when its true identity became widely known, but its successor, JunkScience, still rubbishes tobacco and climate research and warns people not to believe any scientist who says something "might be" true or uses statistics - which pretty much covers all scientists.

Perhaps it is no surprise that some industries are prepared to distort reality to protect their markets. But the tentacles of organised denial reach beyond narrow financial interests. For example, some prominent backers of climate denial also deny evolution. Prominent creationists return the favour both in the US and elsewhere. Recent legislative efforts to get creationism taught in US schools have been joined by calls to "teach the controversy" on warming as well.

These positions align neatly with the concerns of the US political and religious right, and denial is often driven by an overtly political agenda. Some creationists have explicitly argued that the science of both climate and evolution involve "a left-wing ideology that promotes statism, nanny-state moralism and... materialism".

People who buy into one denialism may support others for this reason. Dan Kahan at Yale Law School has found that people's views on social issues such as abortion and same-sex marriage predict their position on climate science too. This, he argues, is because social conservatives tend to be pro-business and resist the idea that it is damaging the planet (Nature, vol 436, p 296).

But other denialisms suggest psychology, not just ideology, is crucial. There is no obvious connection between conservatism and vaccine or AIDS denial, and flu denial was promulgated by a left-leaning group suspicious of the vaccine industry.

Nevertheless, some connections exist that hint at a wider agenda. For example, there is considerable overlap in membership between the vaccine and HIV deniers, says John Moore, an AIDS researcher at Weill Cornell Medical College in New York. Both movements have massive but mysterious funding.

Consider, too, the journal of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, a lobbying group for private medicine. It showcases nearly all denialist causes. In the past two years it has published articles claiming that HIV tests do not detect HIV, second-hand smoke does little harm, smoking bans do not reduce heart attacks, global warming presents little health threat and proposals for a US vaccination registry are "not really about vaccines but about establishing a computer infrastructure... that can be used for other purposes later". It repeatedly published discredited assertions that vaccines cause autism.

It is tempting to wonder if activists sympathetic to climate and evolution denial might be grasping opportunities to discredit science in general by spreading vaccine and HIV denialism.

The conservative character of much denial may also explain its success at winning hearts and minds.

George Lakoff, a cognitive psychologist at the University of California, Berkeley, argues that conservatives have been better than progressives at exploiting anecdote and emotion to win arguments. Progressives tend to think that giving people the facts and figures will inevitably lead them to the right conclusions. They see anecdotes as inadmissible evidence, and appeals to emotion as wrong.

The same is true of scientists. But against emotion and anecdote, dry statements of evidence have little power. To make matters worse, scientists usually react to denial with anger and disdain, which makes them seem even more arrogant.

Poland has reached a similar conclusion. He has experimented a few times with using anecdote and appeals to emotion when speaking to lay audiences. "I get very positive responses - except from numerates, who see it as emotionally manipulative," he says.

There are lessons here for other scientists who engage with denial. They can only win by learning to speak to the "innumerates", who are otherwise likely prey for denialists.

The stakes are high - and sometimes even personal. Like many vaccine developers, Poland has received death threats. "I get phone messages saying 'I hope your kids are safe'," he says. So has Faye Flam, a Philadelphia Inquirer reporter who has written in support of climate science.

Denialism has already killed. AIDS denial has killed an estimated 330,000 South Africans. Tobacco denial delayed action to prevent smoking-related deaths. Vaccine denial has given a new lease of life to killer diseases like measles and polio. Meanwhile, climate change denial delays action to prevent warming. The backlash against efforts to fight the flu pandemic could discourage preparations for the next, potentially a more deadly one.

If science is the best way to understand the world and its dangers, and acting on that understanding requires popular support, then denial movements threaten us all.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 06:14 am
Good article, Wandel . . . thanks.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 06:27 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
So , by not knowing, youve actually described me pretty good .
So if I am right I am wrong.....what did you say ? Oh, yes, thats right :
Quote:
Thats about as disengenuous a statement as Ive ever seen herein.

Quote:
However, when you start making your attempts at some pompous crap in my court, Im gonna challenge you.
Look up the word bombastic...
Quote:
I notice that, like spendi, whenever youre challenged with real facts, you have a tendency to either get personal or go ballistic.
I have seen you call Spendi far worse than he calls you...I think because you cant read you become unnecessarily alarmed at all the big words and assume the worst. Spendi's flaming is usually spot on...not that you have any faults of course.
Quote:
First I engage you in several topics and try to make it clear that you have had many misconceptions about things like DNA or Radiometric dating techniques, the data behind the big bang, and recently Ive engaged you in art.
Your lack of knowledge of finer points and dismissal of everything else apart from your opinion has led me to believe you do not have an education, and your opinion in art is not only predictable it is what you should be saying if you stole someone else's guidebook. Your hope is that extraneous facts will make your opinion seem more knowledgeable. You fail.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 06:33 am
@spendius,
Quote:
On a chap Io it looks ridiculous.
Shocked Ahh...yessss..... Shocked I wouldnt have thought that was a matter to be listed for agreement....

Quote:
I presume you agree then
That is rather presumptuous...

Quote:
that attacking Christianity is an attack on lingerie and thus on Ladies as opposed to female organisms (women).
Whereas I can imagine someone stupid enough to take on God I cant imagine them stupid enough to take on women in lingerie....you will never see a lady's lingerie....
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 06:34 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Kalichman says: they are trapped in what classic studies of neurosis call "suspicious thinking".


That looks like denial of the rationality of suspicious thinking. It's exactly what a snake oil saleman would say to suspicions that he's trying to pull a fast one.

Decoded--it means that anybody who questions his statements is a neurotic. It is a pretty well accepted fact that the whole population is neurotic to some extent. In which case we are trapped in "third-legism" as well and that is quite dangerous too.

Would you deny the rationality of suspicious thinking wande?

I suspect farmerman of trying to create a larger demand for his style of teaching and that of his colleagues. He wants to infiltrate atheist teachers into every school, college and university, he will get round to newspapers and TV later, and into the educational bureaucracy as a whole so that the path to glory for them all will be smooth and, with so few atheists about, the demand for such teachers will far outstrip the supply and thus he and his colleagues will be able to enjoy the sort of salaries football players get and dictate their own terms.

He seems to be saying that human beings are organisms in a laboratory which he is studying from an exterior position. Above probably.

That article is pure shite from start to finish. It has one simple premise. A premise being a proposition on which the subsequent reasoning rests. In this case it is that anybody who distrusts anything he says has his head up his arse. Very good. Very intellectual I must say. If we are to avoid being neurotic all we need do is sit at his feet and gasp in wonder and awestruck admiration at his wisdom and general all round excellence.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 06:40 am
@Ionus,
What about this Io--

Setanta wrote--"Good article, Wandel . . . thanks."

The choice is cringing or tittering. I tittered.
0 Replies
 
 

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