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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 05:54 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
spendius wrote:
It's a terrible thread Set. It completely lacks perspective. Pomposity abounds.

Only when you are posting on it, spendi.



This phrase, replete with economy and wit, deserves repeating. It brought a wee smile to my grizzled old face. THis thread is amazingly more streamlined and dare I say evolved with a certain function clicked "on". Sort of like a genome. When a gene is clicked off, a whole nother level of expression develops than when the same gene sequence is clicked on.

Just an observation


spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 06:23 am
@farmerman,
Be an atheist--get witty. Sheesh!! Mutual reassurance more like. Currying favour. Grovelling really. Nothing on topic. Just effemm again trying to justify his unscientific stance.

With a certain function clicked "on" it's much more like an ostrich than a genome. But even an ostrich is not as good a comparison as with a little lad sobbing into his Mommie's apron because that nasty spendi said something naughty and he's not going out to play no more with him. Boo-hoo-hoo. That's because an ostrich has its arse up in the air which effemm can't do properly.

A genome is a hopeless comparison because it has no intentions. Nobody knows what it actually is. It neither clicks on or off. To suggest that it can do either is anthropomorphic and therefore religious in esseence. It's a tailored religion specific to each individual thus escaping all the botheration of normal religious discipline.

But effemm did cover his back with the slippery "sort of" and insulted all your worship's intelligences in the process.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 07:30 am
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i4/lynchburg.asp

Quote:

The lies of Lynchburg
How U.S. evolutionists taught the Nazis.

by Carl Wieland

The chilling revelations of a recent television documentary1 expose the disturbing consequences of evolutionary ways of thinking. Beginning in the 1920s, many thousands of people in the United States were sterilised against their will and without their consent, to prevent ‘undesirable breeding’. Over 8,000 of these procedures took place at a major centre to which such ‘undesirables’ were sent, in Lynchburg, Virginia.
Lynchburg courthouse
The courthouse in Lynchburg, Virginia. Nazi eugenics laws were modelled on those framed by U.S. evolutionists.

The victims included some with various degrees of mental retardation; many were simply there because they had been abandoned as a result of broken homes or had suffered some other social misfortune. Some had been honours students at school. They were lied to routinely, being told that it was something ‘for their own good’ or ‘for their health’. Those older ones who discovered the purpose behind the operations realised that they would not be able to leave the institution unless they underwent the procedure.

The documentary stated that the entire effort was based upon the notion of eugenics. The eugenics movement was started by Sir Francis Galton (a cousin of Charles Darwin), who wanted to encourage ‘survival of the fittest’ within human society. The ‘humane’ way to do this was by compulsory sterilisation of those deemed ‘unfit’. The idea seduced ‘social reformers from the right and the left’"among them George Bernard Shaw, and Winston Churchill.

The Lynchburg doctor who was responsible for most of the sterilisations in his own town was convinced that what he was doing was for the ‘scientific good’ of society. As a dedicated Darwinian, notions of absolute right and wrong were old-fashioned obstacles to the greater good of the ‘herd’. Needing a legal cover for his actions in the face of the human rights meant to be guaranteed in the (creation-based) U.S. Constitution, he became enamoured with model legislation prepared by a leading U.S. evolutionary biologist, Dr Harry Laughlin.

Laughlin’s law called for compulsory sterilization of not only the ‘feeble-minded’, but also the blind, drug addicts, sufferers from TB and syphilis, epileptics,2 paupers, the deaf and the homeless. Since these people were, it was claimed, obviously the victims of ‘bad genes’, the law was overtly aimed at maintaining the ‘racial purity of the white race’ by preventing the further ‘breeding’ of those whose offspring would ‘drag down’ this race.

What was needed was a test case, a ‘patsy’ to ensure that the law would not be declared unconstitutional. In a blatant set-up which made the ACLU’s manipulation3 of the famous Scopes trial look positively mild, a young lady was chosen who had been targeted for sterilization because there had allegedly been ‘three generations of feeble-mindedness’ in her family. Her lawyer challenged the Laughlin law all the way to the Supreme Court. However, far from being her champion, he was in reality one of those heavily involved in the formulation of these eugenics policies!

Unfortunately also for the young lady, the presiding judge of the Supreme Court hearing this case in 1924 was Oliver Wendell Holmes, an influential Darwinist4 who laid the legislative foundation for many of the advances of secular humanism in the United States. Not surprisingly, Holmes declared the law constitutional. It was acceptable for the state to compel the sterilization of those who were deemed ‘socially inadequate’. The forced sterilization of this innocent victim went ahead; subsequent investigation has revealed that the entire story of the ‘feeble-minded generations’ in her family was a fabrication.

After the Supreme Court decision, eugenics became a major plank of social policy in many American states.

As soon as Hitler (who campaigned on a platform of naked evolutionism"the survival of the fittest race) came to power in 1933, eugenics laws became one of his first acts. Not only was the Nazi program of forced sterilisation for the ‘unfit’ lauded in the U.S."it was actually modelled after the law framed by Laughlin, who was awarded an honorary doctorate by Hitler’s government. As the Nazis moved on to the euthanasia-murder of entire wards full of mental patients, ‘scientific’ admiration for their ‘racial hygiene’ policies was unabated. One U.S. evolutionist actually stated, ‘The Germans are beating us at our own game’.1

Once it was seen as ‘moral’ to take active steps to ‘purify the German race’, it was just a short, logical step from there to the even greater horrors of the Holocaust.5

After World War II, the horrified reactions of a stunned U.S. public to the unimaginable atrocities done in the name of evolutionary ‘racial hygiene’ forced eugenics practices to go underground. The names of the practice changed, but it continued, right down past 1970. All in all, a grand total of some 70,000 people suffered involuntary sterilization.

It was the efforts of a Jenny Crockett, then with the ACLU (which, ironically, has a track record of mostly siding with evolutionary thinking) which brought this scandal to light, in the face of government attempts to keep the lid on. Eventually, a mumbled apology and some offer of ‘mental health counselling’ was all that was available for these many people whose lives had been destroyed by the assumptions of evolutionism.

The church overall must bear its share of the responsibility for being so ‘bluffed’ by the ‘scientific’ claims of evolutionists (which have since changed, and will keep on changing) that it failed to take a strong stand on the true history of man and the world. Instead, as now, it by and large preferred to either ignore the issue or maintain an uneasy compromise"or worse.6 The Lord Jesus said to believers: ‘Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid’ (Matthew 5:13 ff).

We cannot just blame ‘society’ for the evils which flow naturally from the false root of evolutionism if we are unprepared to be salt and light, and to take a stand for biblical reality.

Oliver Wendell Holmes (1841"1935), a distinguished U.S. Supreme Court justice who approved compulsory sterilization. His evolution-based humanistic beliefs left an indelible stamp on America’s laws, contributing greatly to today’s relentless secularization. Return to text.
References and notes

1. The Lynchburg Story, produced by Bruce Eadie, made by Worldview Pictures in association with Discovery Networks and Channel Four, 1993. This story is based on information contained therein.
2. Ironically, Laughlin in later life developed epilepsy himself, and was shunned by his evolutionary eugenicist colleagues as part of the very so-called ‘white trash’ he was trying to stop from breeding.
3. The ACLU = the American Civil Liberties Union, usually a champion of left-wing, pro-humanist causes. In the famous Scopes ‘monkey trial’ of 1925, it deliberately sought to challenge a Tennessee law prohibiting the teaching of evolution by finding someone who would (falsely) confess to teaching it, relying on the ensuing publicity to win public sympathy for the evolutionary cause. See David Menton, Inherit the Wind: An Historical Analysis, Creation 19(1):35"38, December 1996.
4. Law professor Phillip Johnson calls Holmes a ‘convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism’ and who therefore ‘found it difficult to take morality seriously.’ Johnson documents how this influential jurist urged future lawyers to ‘put aside all notions of morality and approach law as … basically the science of state coercion.’ Reason in the Balance, InterVarsity Press, pp. 139"143, 1995.
5. It is now almost common knowledge among WWII historians that the machinery of mass extermination later used in concentration camps, including the notorious Zyklon-B gas, was actually developed by respected members of the German medical/psychiatric/biological establishment for such ‘eugenic’ purposes.
6. Even the renowned defender of inerrancy, the late B.B. Warfield, was at the same time a supporter of Darwinian evolution.

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 07:40 am
Consider the source . . . Carl Wieland is not simply the leading young earth creationist in Australia, he became embroiled in a dispute with the founder of Answers in Genesis, and has split that organization as a result. This clown was trained as a medical doctor, and as is usually the case with the creationist crackpots, that is sufficient for the gullible to believe the fantasies he peddles as science. I am not for a moment surprised that Gunga Din takes this clown seriously.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 07:44 am
What real scientists and scholars have to say about evolution and evolutionism:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/cequotes.html

gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 07:45 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Consider the source . . .


Wrong: Consider the arguments and the case.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 09:27 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
What real scientists and scholars have to say about evolution and evolutionism


I love when gunga thinks that hes snowing us with agenda links and that somebody would actually buy that crap. SAince gunga has no native (or trained) knowledge of the subject hes just flinging trash from other sites (most ofwhich are over 25 years old).

0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 09:33 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
What real scientists and scholars have to say about evolution and evolutionism:

Real scientists don't use the word "evolutionism" unless they are poking fun at a creationist.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 09:58 am
As far as eugenics goes, this whole movement was started and ended by scientists who, through the better understanding of social interactions and genetics, caused the eugenics movement to flounder in its own nonxcientific research. The US eugenics movement was started and promoted mostly by scientists (well meaning but flat incorrect. ) Guys like Luther Burbank, Henry Fairfield Osborne, Harold Crompton, Madison Grant all were used by Hitler in his own interpretation of "making better babies" Hitler took this whole concept to a level thatwas unanticipated by the US movement.


Ive always wondered whether , with our knowledge in genetics and the genome growing, are we fated to relive another level of eugenics based upon "better genes"?.

We are attempting to learn (and ultimately do something about the genetic components of diseases) Arent the things we will potentially do actually a part of a new eugenics movement?

Gunga may be a joke in these fora but, in a manner thats unknown to him, isnt he actually reliving an old story anew? The interesting thing is that human evolution may be working in reverse, in that diseases that were once fatal (ie they prevented the afflicted from passing their infected genes on), now , via medical scince are enabled to parent entire generations of congenital conditions like MS or HC?


Gunga poses the concept as somehow valid data to support his beliefs in Floods and Dinosaurs living with humans, and a 6000 year old earth, yet hes broached the subject that I feel we are presently dealing with in a larger sense re: our medical systems want to develop

rearrangement of congenital defects

lifetime pharmaceutical controls for chronic diseases.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 10:58 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
Wrong: Consider the arguments and the case.


That's right. All my arguments are dismissed because I go to the pub for three pints. It's as bad as licking your own dick while admiring yourself in the mirror.

You can't dismiss gunga's link with fatuities like "consider the source" and "clown" and "joke". To do so is a form of Ignore. An internal censor to prevent the flutterwobblies.

No scientific mind would ever dream of having such an egotistical muck-sweat as they flag up.

What a crew!!

I just saw the Metropolitan Opera perform Puccini's La Boheme on Sky Arts.

It was spellbinding. Impossible without Christianity. As is everything we love.

It's no contest you silly arid materialists. You have been living off not being exposed to view.

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 12:13 pm
@gungasnake,
I did . . . i read the entire pathetic screed. When added to a consideration of the source, the inescapable conclusion is that you are a prime, all-day sucker. If you were a pig farmer, boys like that could sell you **** by the truckload.

Here . . . i've got a new avatar picture for you:

http://qdexpress.com/oscommerce/images/sucker_cookie.gif
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 12:32 pm
@rosborne979,
gungasnake wrote:
What real scientists and scholars have to say about evolution and evolutionism:

I fail to see how eugenics is connected to Darwinism or to evolution. Sterilizing people to improve the average human offspring is selective breeding, a practice known to humans for millenia. I don't see how eugenicists would have needed Darwin to apply selective breeding to humans.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 12:44 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
I fail to see how eugenics is connected to Darwinism or to evolution.

It's not. Evolution is simply an observation of how the natural world works, not a mandate on how people should behave.

But in the delusional ramblings of some people's minds, the innocent meanderings of nature are somehow reflective of the corruption they see in themselves.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 03:12 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
I don't see how eugenicists would have needed Darwin to apply selective breeding to humans.


They didn't "need" it. But it provided scientific justification for their ideas. They used it.

Natural selection is a eugenicists charter. There is no reason not to apply it to humans if it is assumed humans are animals. Only by saying that humans are not animals can not applying eugenics make sense.

There's a difference between informal eugenics and officially sanctioned eugenics.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 03:16 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Evolution is simply an observation of how the natural world works, not a mandate on how people should behave.


So what institutions are in play for mandating how people should behave?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 05:47 pm
@Thomas,
Really, the portion of DArwins work that involved artificial selection of domestic animals feeds more to the eugenicist mind. "The preservation of favoured races"... is the ending of the books title and , its often been misread to be a recipe book.

Rmember the aliens and the Book "To SERVE MAN"?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 06:15 pm
@farmerman,
So what institutions are in play for mandating how people should behave outside of the evolution canon?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 06:24 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Really, the portion of DArwins work that involved artificial selection of domestic animals feeds more to the eugenicist mind.


We all know that. Breeding fast horses was going on long before Darwin's dad did the business. And if we all know what contribution to the thread does it make except as another piece of evidence to add to the pile that shows we are all stupid compared to effemm.

Quote:
"The preservation of favoured races"... is the ending of the books title and , its often been misread to be a recipe book.


The "recipe book" flippancy is designed to distract you. I'll bet the book has often been misread as something to nail to the ****-house wall for arse wiping purposes.

Darwin bleieved in the preservation of favoured races. He would have betrayed himself and all his followers otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Xenoche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 04:17 am
Like many scientific discoveries of years past, despite reality, if the discovery in any way contradicts deeply held religious beliefs there is a conflict of interest, 'what reality suggests' verses 'what people want to hear'. I feel we should have no reason to presume a creator or evolution, especially when either explanation shouldn't offer consequence within a truly secular society (which I believe is an absolute and by no means possilble, there will always be consequence, no matter how minute).
With the tools of science we may be able to shape our future existence as a species. Is that in itself not wonderful?

What does religion give us in modern society that is so necessary?
This question, for me, underlines the key difference of one's perception of reality. To me religion offers controversy and another means in which humanity can divide itself. To say that a person of religious inclination is better morally is to admit intellectual dishonesty, as all religions preach the same moral platitude, ignoring the fact that to rest on that conclusion alienates all other religious perspectives (which has been used throughout history to wage war, the difference conjures demonization, legitimizing the actions of the elite and making the killing easier).

This ideological function is still widely used today, for example the recent demonization of Muslim's and Iran to legitimize a possible act of war, and, of course, the demonization of America fed to Taliban troops by their religious leaders (makes killing righteous, yeah right...).

Come on, were a big species now, we have a chance to not die with the rest of the creatures grounded on this space rock, lets not get bogged down with petty intellectual fairy tale discrepancies.

What does religion give us in modern society that is so necessary?
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 09:42 am
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0 Replies
 
 

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