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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2008 04:41 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
They are not "lefties" Finn. They are spread out all over the place. They daren't even look into the sexual question.

They couldn't defend evolution theory if you paid them. They do the simple bits of it as if they provide a rebuttal of Christianity. Everybody knows that Dawkins is a silly prick. You can't get sillier than having three wives. It took hundreds of years to make us have one each.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2008 04:42 pm
@spendius,
Sorry- change "simple bits" to "socially acceptable bits." Scientists they are not.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2008 05:20 pm
wande quoted-

Quote:
The left should not aim at some sort of official atheism, of course, but it should demand that religion be a private matter, namely that it be totally kept out of public life, in particular of political discourse.


If proof is needed that this guy either doesn't know what he is talking about or is having you on it is right there in that one sentence.

Why do you post this drivel wande? It's insulting to A2Kers. Do you really think that because it means something to you it also does to us.

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2008 05:23 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
If you are so concerned about the young minds in the rare school district that contends Creationism warrants equal consideration to Evolution, move your ass to the battle zone and become involved.


I like your style. With a naive stroke of the keyboard you show "us liberals" that we dont have any dog in the fight. Obviously Im not going to waste my time since youre totally clueless of the genesis of these conversations and who or who isnt "involved". You might have enjoyed the Dover (Pa ) case. Perhaps you heard of it. This case was filed in 2005 as a result of our committees passage of science ed standards in Pa. (Dover was, like Dayton Tennessee, merely a "test site"). The important thing about Dover is that it had, after adjudication, validated the science ed standards of Pa and these standards are being penned in the several states surrounding .
Your naive view that Cretionism is dead is precious. Im sure the science curricula subcommittees of the Texas AAUP would love to hear that.

Perhaps a little more education should preceed you passion, we can always use someone who generally agrees that Creationism is kinda stupid in science classes. All you need to understand better is WHY.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2008 05:27 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
youre totally clueless of the genesis of these conversations


What conversations? When you have discussion participants on Ignore and only see your own spiel or that of those which flatters you you are not having any conversation. You have a mirror.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 08:47 am
TEXAS UPDATE
Quote:
Majority say teach evolution in Texas
(Associated Press, November 18, 2008)

A new study finds 95 percent of science professors at Texas' public and private universities are against a state policy requiring weaknesses in the theory of evolution be covered in public school science classes.

A sociology professor at the University of Texas at Arlington surveyed 464 university biologists and anthropologists for a study by the progressive group Texas Freedom Network.

The majority surveyed said schools should teach "just evolution" in covering the origins of life on earth. The rest said children should learn both evolution and the creationist theory called "intelligent design."

"Many of these science faculty members help determine who gets into our state colleges and universities," said the study's author, Raymond A. Eve, in Monday's online edition of The Dallas Morning News. "Their responses should send parents a clear message that those who want to play politics with science education are putting our kids at risk."

Most study respondents said they believe any focus on the weaknesses of evolution theory and on alternative theories would harm students' college readiness and their ability to compete for jobs.

Survey results were released ahead of Wednesday's state Board of Education public hearing on new science curriculum standards.

A main topic of discussion is expected to be how teachers should treat Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.

New science curriculum standards for Texas public school students will be voted on early next year in what is expected to be a close vote by the state Board of Education. A majority of members have said they are in favor of retaining the current mandate to cover both strengths and weaknesses of major scientific theories, notably evolution.

Standards adopted by the board will remain in place for the next decade.

Texas Freedom Network president Kathy Miller, whose group often spars with social conservatives, said it would be a mistake to ignore the beliefs of science professors from public and private universities across the state.

"This survey leaves no doubt that the political crusade against evolution and other attempts to dumb down our public school science curriculum are deeply misguided," Miller said.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:26 pm
@wandeljw,
Ms Miller is simply using a half-baked understanding (if that) of evolution theory to bat herself into public prominence.

Would she deny that the lingerie shop, ladies fashions and sexual fantasy are on the cusp of the nexus between culture and nature. If not, and her position is ridiculous otherwise, how does she propose dealing with the matter in a biology lesson. If she puts it on Ignore, as I anticipate she will to prevent her facing up to her own stupidity, she has, by doing so, recognised its specialness and sanctity.

Wilhelm Reich wrote-

Quote:
Orgonomic functionalism is no luxury item that one may use or discard as one pleases. It joins together the laws of thinking and the perceptual function which one must master if one wants children and adolescents to grow up in a life-affirmative manner in this world, if one wishes to bring the human animal again into harmony with his natural biology and with surrounding nature. One may be against such a goal for philosophic or religious reasons. One may, of course, as a "pure philosopher" declare that the " unity of nature and culture" is impossible or harmful or unethical or unimportant. But no one may today come out and assert that the splitting up of the human animal into a cultural and a private, an official and a personal existence, into a "preserver of higher values" and "an orgonotic energy system ," does not undermine his health in the truest sense of the word, does not cripple his intelligence, does not destroy his joie de vivre, does not paralyze his initiative, does not plunge society again and again into chaos.

It is Ms Miller who is misguided. No doubt she confines her perceptions to those who are similarly misguided and who are a self replicating elite. No doubt she has the senator who spoke of "controversial issues" on Ignore and I would guess that had he elaborated a bit she would, this searcher after scientific truth, bolt out of the room with her artificial sexual allurements in dissaray.

She should read Freud instead of the crap she has been doing so far. I mean READ. You know- with comprehension. No Ignored bits.

Since when have science professors been the fount of wisdom? I've seen bimbo typists wring their necks.

Even the headline is a barefaced lie. That is no majority in a democracy. 464 doesn't even register in the polls in a place like Texas.

0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:35 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
A majority of members have said they are in favor of retaining the current mandate to cover both strengths and weaknesses of major scientific theories, notably evolution.

As a part of the mandate, I wonder if they will cover the fact that there are NO weaknesses in evolutionary theory, there are only unknowns. And as far as the strengths are concerned, it should be noted in all science classes that evolutionary theory is one of the most strongly supported and well understood theories in all of science. Do you think they will cover those two points?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:41 pm
@rosborne979,
The master of the obvious speaks again. What a boring person that guy is. Add in sanctimonious pomposity and it's murder at close quarters.

It's funny that he is unaware that Reich recognised his indebtedness to Darwin.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 02:03 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

Quote:
A majority of members have said they are in favor of retaining the current mandate to cover both strengths and weaknesses of major scientific theories, notably evolution.

As a part of the mandate, I wonder if they will cover the fact that there are NO weaknesses in evolutionary theory, there are only unknowns. And as far as the strengths are concerned, it should be noted in all science classes that evolutionary theory is one of the most strongly supported and well understood theories in all of science. Do you think they will cover those two points?


It would be great if the Texas education board acknowledges that. However, I fear that their view of strengths and weaknesses is the same as the view of the Discovery Institute.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 03:47 pm
@wandeljw,
Why would it be great wande? I heard on the BBC News last week that 85% of Americans believe in God and 65% go to church regularly.

Would they think it great? One might assume that Texas has even higher figures if those are true. In what way would Texans think it great? That city slickers from the cold north are going to impose their minority views upon them, which they hold for reasons we needn't go into here, on the basis of infantile, unscientific assertions and having gone weak at the knees at the mention of a few professors.

There was some science, and relevant science in biology classes, in my last post but there's no interest in that. There's just "wouldn't it be great?"

Why don't you get Ms Miller and Mr Dawkins onto this thread and provide me with somebody to argue with. It's as if you think A2K is just a vehicle for your blurts.

Science is about "quantities". What about "qualities". When did you last go into a restaurant thinking about calorie and protein intake quotients. Will we all be on astronaut's gunk in tubes when Big Science wins through? It certainly makes sense scientifically. Soylent Green. Pig swill. Be very efficient I should think. Free up funds for more research into what happened before the time CERN said what happened just after the Big Bang.

Why isn't a sparkling Rhone white judged solely on its alcohol content if quantity is all there is. And if it isn't your case is lost.

Maybe you could judge can-can dancers on quantity if you take the view, as I do, that the more there are the better.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 04:00 pm
@spendius,
You know those Australian aerobics teams they show on telly to fill the spaces between the ads sometimes.

I bet not one of those girls is half so fit as an average can-can dancer. And they are top aerobics experts.

Would we ever smile again if you po-faced twits had your way? Did Spock ever smile? I bet he never tittered.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 06:44 am
There are weaknesses in Darwinian theory per se. However, what wed define as weaknesses are not "Fatal flaws" of the entire theory base. THey are areas where present explanations are probably incorrect and new models need to be developed. As science moves ahead in uncovering thee models, the weaknesses become better defined and a more accurate mechanism underpinned . Its entirely evidence driven and the new mode of generating models first is somewhat unsatisfying because its not driven to science needs, its mostly driven by news cycles. Most of us dont mind waiting a few years to get something more correct, than to have to change models every 2 weeks
Im sure that envronment and genetic drift account for most of the evolutionary changes but still, entire genera dont seem to follwo either and these genera are all extinct. (Maybe there was some micro environmnetal effect that affected radical changes in the bauplan).

rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 07:15 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
It would be great if the Texas education board acknowledges that. However, I fear that their view of strengths and weaknesses is the same as the view of the Discovery Institute.

I agree. The "strengths and weaknesses" statement will not be applied accurately and not across all scientific disciplines. Instead it will be used as a mechanism to impart a bias into the teaching process. Science already has mechanisms built into it for exploring true strengths and weaknesses, and those are reflected in the current body of scientific knowledge. Adding a statement like that can only serve to undermine the validity of the science being taught.

0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 07:19 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
There are weaknesses in Darwinian theory per se. However, what wed define as weaknesses are not "Fatal flaws" of the entire theory base. THey are areas where present explanations are probably incorrect and new models need to be developed.

You're speaking as a true scientist of course. But as we all know, it's not the details of Evolutionary Theory which the DI wishes to attack, it's the basic fact of evolution itself.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 07:39 am
@rosborne979,
Well, it does get a bit frustrating when the DI uses fraud and deception to attempt to argue their points.

Another weakness in evolutionary thought is how it was even initiated in deep time.When and how did replication turn up? where did protists beome eukaryotes? Somany fundamental questions, so little evidence.
I sure as hell dont want to see evolutionary thought mnerge with "M" theory, I hate it when the only way we can define a point is by some math model that may or may not even be on the right track.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 09:41 am
Quote:
Science is up for debate in Austin
(BUD KENNEDY, Fort Worth Star-Telegram Commentary, November 19, 2008)

The battle for science begins today in Austin.

It might not end until 2010, when Gov. Rick Perry is either replaced or re-elected.

Perry has said bluntly that he wants so-called intelligent design " creation theology " taught in science classes.

Look, the way Perry runs our schools, teachers barely have enough time to teach science.

Can’t somebody else teach religion?

To oversee the decision about whether science classes will stick to science, Perry has appointed somebody with the same high academic credentials as our governor: a former Aggie yell leader.

Perry put Bryan dentist Don McLeroy in charge of the State Board of Education.

McLeroy describes himself as a creationist who reads the Bible as literal. Asked how faith should affect science lessons, he told The Eagle of Bryan-College Station: "Science should be neutral."

Neutral?

Conservatives would raise a fuss if some math teacher wanted to remain neutral on whether 2 plus 2 equals 4 or if some English teacher tried to stay neutral on how to spell, say, theocracy.

When the Aggies are playing the Longhorns, I want classroom teachers to remain neutral.

Evolution is not a football game. There are not two sides.

There is no neutral.

Right now, there is one and only one scientific theory of evolution. No other theory is widely accepted yet by scientists.

So anyone who wants to "teach the controversy" " or stage a "great debate," as one of the exiting Episcopal churches in Fort Worth did recently " is inherently preaching.

The State Board of Education will hear a lot of preaching today at a public hearing on changing the science curriculum.

Board member Gail Lowe, a Lampasas Republican who also represents voters in Denton, Hood and Wise counties, has said she wants to keep the current policy to teach the "strengths and weaknesses" of evolution theory.

Only 94 of 464 Texas university science professors who responded to a survey would agree.

Most say that creation theology has no place in the classroom and that teaching "strengths and weaknesses" hinders Texas kids in college, according to a survey released this week by the Texas Freedom Network.

The entire evolution debate might also hinder Republicans’ chances in 2010.

By all indications, Perry will go up against U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, with the winner facing Houston Mayor Bill White in a state that is now about 45 percent Democratic.

"There is a risk here for Republicans," said Texas Christian University political science professor Jim Riddlesperger. "The party needs to define itself as conservative but not narrow. If they let the social conservatives dominate, they risk losing votes."

The low-profile State Board of Education has been run for years by home-schoolers, pastors and zealots like Houston-area lawyer Cynthia Dunbar.

Southern Methodist University political science professor Cal Jillson sees short-term success and long-term failure if Perry forces creationism into schools.

"Short term, it rallies some Republicans around Perry in the primary," Jillson said. "Long term, the problem is that the Republican Party’s voter base is already narrowing. The party can’t afford to be identified as anti-science."

Tarrant County Republican Party Chairwoman Stephanie Klick said she’s not worried.

"It’s healthy to have a discussion," she said, adding that the big-bang theory should also be open to challenge.

"We should look at any theory and ask, 'Does this make sense?’" she said.

Does that include the theory that Perry and the board know what they’re doing?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 09:50 am
@farmerman,
I detect a sniff of compromise.

Quote:
Another weakness in evolutionary thought is how it was even initiated in deep time.When and how did replication turn up?


That's an old point of mine. Effemm was replicated himself so all he needs do to answer his question is work backwards from how he was replicated and look for the common denominators. Most people think it best to stop at the Garden of Eden. Unless you want to beat your brains into a pulp.

It gets indelicate before that and leads to indelicate activities such as spraying a lady's bar stool with something off a rutting pig to get her to go steamy quicker than the gin and tonics (no ice,two slices of lemon and a little umbrella to keep the rain off) are getting her. I would never do that. I would keep on with the g&ts until she was as pissed as a flea in a bartop mop. He might drown in the washer but he won't know about it.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2008 10:15 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
There is no neutral.
Quote:


Oh yes there is. Science is neutral. Except in regard to Evolution Theory.

One can tell how stupid this writer is by his using that 2+2= 4 dodge. Or gravity. Or anything at all that's neutral. And anyway--2+2= 4 what? Units of our making. Abstractions. He knows no science.

Why are my posts not responded to if these others are neutral. They are not neutral at all. They are not scientists. If they ignore me on here they would ignore job applications for teaching posts from anybody like me. Obviously. Right! They want to control teacher recruitment. And A2K recruitment. When they've won.

I feel sure Gov. Perry will have had many face-to-face meetings with scientists. As I have. He will have heard their political views, or of them. As I have.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 09:15 am
TEXAS UPDATE
Quote:
Board of Education challenged over evolution
(By GARY SCHARRER, Houston Chronicle, Nov. 20, 2008)

AUSTIN " Texas risks becoming a national joke if state educators insist on clouding the teaching of evolution, scores of scientists, science teachers and concerned residents Texans told the State Board of Education on Wednesday.

They pleaded with the 15-member board not to confuse public schoolchildren with a watered-down teaching of evolution by requiring teachers to teach the weaknesses or limitations of evolution.

The board is expected to take a preliminary vote in January on new science curriculum standards that will dictate new science books for the state's 4.5 million students.

"Once again, Texas is in the national spotlight, and scientists, science teachers, and education news writers all over the United States are waiting to see what new foolishness is going to happen in Austin this time," Steven Schafersman, president of Texas Citizens for Science, told the board. "Once again our state is going to experience the embarrassment of having anti-scientific, anti-evolutionists on the state board try to game the process and force the new science standards to contain anti-scientific language."

The issue for most critics focuses on the provision requiring both the strengths and weaknesses of evolution.

"Scientists want to get rid of this weaknesses wording. It's just bad science," Schafersman said. "Scientific theories don't have weaknesses."

Some science hypotheses have weaknesses, he said. But he and other experts emphasized that such theories governing atomic, germ or plate tectonics don't have weaknesses.

For board member Ken Mercer, R-San Antonio, the issue involves academic freedom and allowing students to ask questions.

"I'm a big fan of academic freedom," Mercer said. "We're not putting religion in books."

Evolution as an explanation for the nature and history of life on Earth is a major unifying concept in science, Francis Eberle, head of the 60,000-member National Science Teachers Association, told the board.

"Only one model " the theory of evolution " is widely accepted, and any other model should not be used in the science classroom," Eberle said. "Students are easily impressed and are not often able to comprehend the complexity of adult arguments."

Texas students would be disadvantaged in the world's work force if exposed to pseudoscience concepts and if evolution is not reinforced as a major scientific concept, he said.

Nearly 90 people signed up to testify before the board. By early evening, only one person embraced the weaknesses provision.

Not all of the complaints involved evolution. Several teachers criticized the state's proposed science curriculum standards as being overly broad and not deep enough.
 

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