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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 07:56 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

My deepest sympathies go out to all those unfortunate people who have to deal with ci in the flesh.


ci is a generous, easygoing, friendly guy in person. He adopts a different personality when he is posting. Don't let that fool you, spendius.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 08:47 am
Quote:
More reasons not to debate creationists
(PZ Myers, Scienceblogs.com, October 27, 2009)

I'm going to be in this silly debate on "Should Intelligent Design Be Taught In The Schools?" with creationist kook Jerry Bergman on 16 November, sponsored by CASH and the local Kook Central. The latest hangup, though, is that the creationists want to have a pre- and post-debate survey, and they plan to give the audience these questions:

"I think intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution in all schools, public and private.
Strongly Disagree Disagree Undecided Agree Strongly Agree

I think intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution by teachers who support it, without punishment.
Strongly Disagree Disagree Undecided Agree Strongly Agree

I think that as a minimum, the evidence against evolution should be taught alongside evidence for evolution.
Strongly Disagree Disagree Undecided Agree Strongly Agree
"

I've told them that that last question is simply unacceptable: it's misleading, prejudicial, and begs the question. There is no evidence against evolution. If there were, I'd agree " teach it. However, until they can say something specific, I'm not going to let them get away with sneaking in a stupid loaded question to their audience ahead of time.

I explained that as is, I'd answer that question with "strongly agree", because I think that evidence should be taught…but that I know they want to use it to pretend that there is some substantial support for teaching creationism, which is not the case.

Much waffling is going on on their part. I've put my foot down: cut the question out. They're trying to weasel in some fuzzy alternative that will have the same effect. The first two questions are fine, they directly address the subject of the debate more specifically (that is, "Intelligent design"), but the last is just an open-ended bit of noise that they want to use to justify their anti-science agenda.

Dealing with these charlatans is aggravating on so many levels.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 09:26 am
@wandeljw,
Oh, boy, one's online personalities and one's social personalities are almost always two different things. Why do I think that Pope Splendious XXX's anarchic personality isn't exactly the same face-to-face in the wet milieu of the local pub? We can't see him so we can't see that black eyes.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 09:32 am
@Lightwizard,
I'm worse than you are, because I have two in my car and failed to bring it into the store with me. argh!
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 09:33 am
@cicerone imposter,
The stodgy, rigid right cannot understand evolution. They believe everyone is the same as one minute after the Garden of Eden was closed for business. Temporarily going off-topic is not trolling -- the same IDiot does not understand trolling, especially since that's exactly what he does. Plebeian, kneel thyself.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 09:44 am
@wandeljw,
Religion relies on fuzziness -- it is in their pitiful explanation of randomness. The Universe is in chaos -- there is no "design." Does that relate to any part of our society being anarchic? This demonstrates how totally confusing the randomness of nature's course can be to those who are not science oriented. It's even beyond their brain's to be able to explain any of nature without resorting to a supernatural reason.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 09:59 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
ci is a generous, easygoing, friendly guy in person. He adopts a different personality when he is posting. Don't let that fool you, spendius.


I'm not fooled. You were when he was on his best behaviour. One wouldn't want to upset anyone who had agreed to a meeting now would one. Especially a short one.

The real ci. is on here. LOLLING and ROTFLHAO drunk with power on his keys.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 10:02 am
@spendius,
spendi, You're the cause of much of my laughter on a2k.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 10:17 am
@cicerone imposter,
I bet you talk to those religious family members of your's just like you do to me. Apart from when you have agreed to not talk about anything contentious.

Meeting wande for two days glad-handing and competing with each other on who is the most civilised, generous, easy-going and friendly type of guy is not good science for ascertaining your position on the Asshole scale.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 10:19 am
@spendius,
Yea, you're right, and I agree with you! I'm a real asshole, but that's part of my Dr Jykle persona that seems to work quite well.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 10:20 am
@spendius,
Code:who is the most civilised, generous, easy-going and friendly type of guy
That would be me of course, hands down.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 10:22 am
@dyslexia,
I told dys to go phuck himself once, but he's totally correct.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 10:44 am
@cicerone imposter,
You didn't. Embarrassed Laughing
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 01:28 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Dealing with these charlatans is aggravating on so many levels.


I suppose Mr Myers is prepared to put up with the aggravation for personal reasons. One wouldn't want to be seen putting up with aggravation with no benefits arising. Not from a scientific point of view at least.

The sponsorship being a possibility but I think it is likely to be more subtle than that and possibly so subtle that Mr Myers himself might not be fully aware of it.

It is a commonplace jest that extraneous motives are often present among the motives of those who seek the amelioration of society's ills. Motives of a self-regarding nature and especially those which allow a favourable comparison of the actors with the vulgar classes. An invidious distinction Veblen would say.

Much work of an ameliorative nature, ostensibly disinterested, is habitually thought of by the vulgar classes as very similar to the work of a terrier on a rat and that it is carried forth in order to enhance the repute, or even the financial status, of its promoters.

The supporters of such promoters get a semblance of the good repute enhancement by bathing in its radiations the power of which falls off with the square of their distance from the source. Mr Meyers in this incident. They rarely get a dime from the proceeds.

The promotion, if handled with aplomb (gets the right result) serves to authenticate the intellectual respectability of the promoter and to keep constantly before his mind his superior status by contrasting him with the lower-lying humanity on whom the work of amelioration is to be wrought in the event of the promotion leading to legislation. To a lesser extent, as I said, the supporters get a dilute share of the cachet. Their intellectual respectabilty then becomes a factor which is why they react so venemously to it being called into question in a manner they are unable to counteract except by insults.

If Mr Myers has not had what one might call "funny effects" from his studies of evolution I am inclined to think he has merely had his nurse test the waters with her elbow or he is not equipped with a sufficiently high intelligence to have grasped the significances of it. And that latter condition of innocence is not ubiquitous in a group of 50 million fast developing kids in peer group settings. It is a personal characteristic of Mr Myers.

There is, of course, the motive of a long-term organised political strategy but that's another question.





0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2009 12:06 pm
Upcoming Event

The Legacy of Darwin Intelligent Design Conference
October 30, 2009 - October 31, 2009
Douglas County Event Center, Castle Rock, Colorado


This year marks the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin's birth and the 150th anniversary of the publication of his culture-shaking book, On the Origin of Species. What has been the cultural impact of a century-and-a-half of Darwinism? And what is the ground-breaking evidence for intelligent design?*

The answers to these questions will be explored at the Legacy of Darwin Intelligent Design Conference on October 30-31 in Castle Rock, Colorado. Sponsored by Shepherd Project Ministries, this conference features several speakers from Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, including Dr. Stephen Meyer, author of The Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design; Dr. Michael Behe, author of Darwin's Black Box and The Edge of Evolution; Dr. David Berlinski, author of The Devil's Delusion: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions; and Dr. John G. West, author of Darwin Day in America: How Our Politics and Culture Have Been Dehumanized in the Name of Science.

*How busy have they been inventing new evidence where non exists? What a pathetic lead-in "Legacy of Darwin" as a segue to their quasi-scientific baloney.
Yes, on Darwin day scientists were set up in every city of inoculate everyone with the "Dehumanizing Vaccine," to protect you from their fabricated statistical fantasy nonsense.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2009 01:14 pm
@Lightwizard,
One has to wonder why the question--"What has been the cultural impact of a century-and-a-half of Darwinism?" has been asked when the answer, that the culture had been shook, had been given in the sentence preceeding it.

Quote:
And what is the ground-breaking evidence for intelligent design?


One might say that we would be in a sad and parlous state without intelligent design and certainly in no position to convene conferences in Castle Rock. In fact Castle Rock is impossible as a cultural artefact without intelligent design. Thus everything associated with Castle Rock, past, present or future, is also impossible without intelligent design.

Admittedly there is scant evidence of the predicament of humans before intelligent design but it is pretty certain there were no restaurants, hotels or airports. If we allow that there might have been whorehouses even those would probably have fallen foul of FDA regulations.

It is not an entirely ridiculous suggestion that intelligent design is mankind's greatest ever invention and that everything else are merely extensions. Like non-stick frying pans are an extension of the discovery of a desire for us to fly in the air made by writers of fantasy in which humans did fly. There is a power to be had from flying as those writers well knew. They may not have actually discovered it but merely given it words. It might be a primeval urge previously inarticulate. Superman movies and those of Condors gliding in circles on the up-currents, looking for a rodent, to an Andean pipe tune, provide movie watchers with a semblance of that primeval urge thus explaining their popularity. Advertising is constantly bombarding us with images which provide such semblances of those chthonic strivings.

The only argument worth having is whether or not intelligent design has served its purpose and become outmoded and a brake on our progress and that it is time we grew up and stood on our own feet and did without it. All else is futility. And that futile bickering is merely a snowstorm to delay us deciding because of how scary such a decision risks being.

And I'm not objecting to that. It is scary. I'm objecting to the name of Science being used to validate the bickering and the temporary use of the best facilities Castle Rock has to offer.

We cancelled the time-long validity of the rule about women not voting didn't we. And that was pretty scary. The length of time it takes to make decisions like that is a guide to how scary it is.

Whether abolishing God is a scary as giving women the vote I'm not qualified enough to say. But it's in that bracket.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 03:00 pm
EUGENIE SCOTT CRITIQUES CREATIONIST EDITION OF DARWIN BOOK
Quote:
How Creationist 'Origin' Distorts Darwin
(By Eugenie C. Scott, Ph.D, U.S. News & World Report, October 30, 2009)

Ray Comfort and I agree that "science is a wonderful discipline, to which we are deeply indebted." We agree that it would be nice for students to get a free copy of Darwins best-known book, On the Origin of Species. I'll even go further than he might: The Origin "like Shakespeare and the Bible"should be on every educated person's bookshelf. If you don't understand evolution, you can't be considered scientifically literate. And we agree that students should read the Origin thoroughly.

Unfortunately, it will be hard to thoroughly read the version that Comfort will be distributing on college campuses in November. The copy his publisher sent me is missing no fewer than four crucial chapters, as well as Darwin's introduction. Two of the omitted chapters, Chapters 11 and 12, showcase biogeography, some of Darwin's strongest evidence for evolution. Which is a better explanation for the distribution of plants and animals around the planet: common ancestry or special creation? Which better explains why island species are more similar to species on the mainland closest to them, rather than to more distant species that share a similar environment? The answer clearly is common ancestry. Today, scientists continue to develop the science of biogeography, confirming, refining, and extending Darwin's conclusions.

Likewise missing from Comfort's bowdlerized version of the Origin is Chapter 13, where Darwin explained how evolution makes sense of classification, morphology, and embryology. To take a simple example, why do all land vertebrates (amphibians, mammals, and reptiles and birds) have four limbs? Not because four limbs are necessarily a superior design for land locomotion: insects have six, arachnids have eight, and millipedes have, well, lots. It's because all land vertebrates descended with modification from a four-legged ("tetrapod") ancestor. Since Darwin's era, scientists have repeatedly confirmed that the more recently two species have shared a common ancestor, the more similar are their anatomy, their biochemistry, their embryology, and their genetics.

"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution," as a famous geneticist said. That's why evolution is taught matter-of-factly in the biology and geology departments of every respected university in the country, secular or sectarian, from Berkeley to Brigham Young. That's why the National Academy of Sciences and the American Association for the Advancement of Science wholeheartedly endorse the teaching of evolution in the public schools. That's why thousands of papers applying, extending, or refining evolution are published in the scientific research literature every year.

But there's no reason for students to refuse Comfort's free"albeit suspiciously abridged"copy of the Origin. Read the first eight pages of the introduction, which is a reasonably accurate, if derivative, sketch of Darwin's life. The last 10 pages or so are devoted to some rather heavy-handed evangelism, which doesn't really have anything to do with the history or content of the evolutionary sciences; read it or not as you please.

But don't waste your time with the middle section of the introduction, a hopeless mess of long-ago-refuted creationist arguments, teeming with misinformation about the science of evolution, populated by legions of strawmen, and exhibiting what can be charitably described as muddled thinking.

For example, Comfort's treatment of the human fossil record is painfully superficial, out of date, and erroneous. Piltdown Man and Nebraska Man"one a forgery, the other a misidentification, both rejected by science more than 50 years ago"are trotted out for scorn, as if they somehow negate the remaining huge volume of human fossils. There are more specimens of "Ardi" (the newly described Ardipithecus ramidus) than there are of Tyrannosaurus "and any 8-year-old aspiring paleontologist will be delighted to tell you how much we know about the T. rex!

But you wouldn't learn any of this from reading Comfort's introduction. He says, "Java Man [a Homo erectus], found in the early 20th century, was nothing more than a piece of skull, a fragment of a thigh bone, and three molar teeth." Well, that was from a single site"excavated in the 1890s. What about the dozens of other sites where fossils of H. erectus are found, from China to Kenya to Georgia? Another whopper: "Java Man is now regarded as fully human." Trust me, if one sat down next to you on the bus, you would know the difference.

In fact, the fossil record for the human lineage is impressive, providing the evidence on which our understanding of the big events of human evolution is based. We and modern chimpanzees shared a common ancestor millions of years ago; the main feature separating us from our chimpanzee cousins is bipedalism, followed by toolmaking, and then brain expansion, and then the substantial elaboration of behavior we call human culture. More fossils will provide more details, but this outline of human evolution is not in serious doubt among scientists.

It's not just human evolution that Comfort misrepresents. His main gripe is the old creationist standby, the supposed lack of transitional forms in the fossil record. (Darwin addressed the objection in Chapter 9 of the Origin, interestingly not included in Comfort's version.) Comfort sneers at the fossil evidence for the terrestrial ancestry of whales and the dinosaurian ancestry of birds. Too bad for him that he has a knack for picking bad examples: There are splendid fossils of dinosaurs that have feathers and of whales that have legs"and even feet. Faced with ignorance like this, I'm reminded of a jeremiad: "Oh foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not."

But if you are willing to use your ears to listen to what paleontologists say about transitional features and use your eyes to look at the evidence described in the scientific literature (as well as displayed in many museums and science centers around the country), you will find transitional fossils galore. There are clear transitional series from aquatic vertebrates to land vertebrates, from primitive land vertebrates to mammals, from dinosaurs to birds, from land vertebrates to whales, and of course a wonderful series of fossils leading to Homo sapiens. A good place to begin is a marvelous website dismissively mentioned (and erroneously described) in Comfort's introduction, the University of California Museum of Paleontology's Understanding Evolution.

This year marks the 200th anniversary of Darwin's birth and the 150th anniversary of the publication of On the Origin of Species, both occasions worth celebrating by anyone who cares about our understanding of the natural world. So it's no surprise that creationists are trying to piggyback on the festivities with cynical publicity stunts like Comfort's. But I have faith that college students are sharp enough to realize that Comfort's take on Darwin and evolution is simply bananas.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 04:18 pm
Our government has sacked its scientific adviser on drugs because his scientific advice is contrary to its policy on drugs. He had said that cannabis is less dangerous than both alcohol and tobacco and that ecstasy is less dangerous than riding horses.

It is self evident that the government thinks that he doesn't have the full picture which is a general weakness in a lot of scientific advice.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 06:02 am
@wandeljw,
he has time to write critiquse, but she doesnt have the time to assure that the Damn NCSE Newsletter gets mailed out in time. THE NCSE is about the most incompetent string of beurocrats Ive ever had to deal with. They are a 501-(c)3 and they act like everybody owes THEM money. They need to get some efficiency into that organization so that the Creationist crowd doesnt out flank them.

As Woody Allen said 80% of life is showing up.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
(Im a pissed off NCSE member)
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 06:24 am
@farmerman,
I have always thought of NCSE as the main resource in the battle against anti-evolution. Eugenie Scott does travel alot, giving speeches and advising science teachers.
 

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