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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 03:36 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Does there not exist a ground state Delta in the disintegrations of Cesium 133 when humans are not around?


Leaving aside alien intelligences, which might be infinite, not only do no such things exist but they cannot. No humans--no ground states, no disintegrations , no Caesium and no number 133.

Spengler's paragraphs answer the Big Bang problem. We only flatter ourselves that we have grown out of children's eyes.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 05:07 pm
My favourite insults are that I'm immature, childish and that I should grow up and get a life.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 05:29 pm
@spendius,
Those are your good points
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 08:13 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Quote:
Can Evolution Run in Reverse? A Study Says It’s a One-Way Street

If evolution has no direction to it going forward, then it seems obvious that it wouldn't have any direction to it going in reverse either. It's not a "one-way-street", it's an explosion of explosions, each radiating out from a center, erasing their tracks as they go.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 08:18 pm
"My favourite insults are that I'm immature, childish and that I should grow up and get a life."

Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 06:42 am
@rosborne979,
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Quote:
Quote:

Can Evolution Run in Reverse? A Study Says It’s a One-Way Street


to which ROS responded
Quote:
If evolution has no direction to it going forward, then it seems obvious that it wouldn't have any direction to it going in reverse either.


These metaphors of implied direction give sense that changes are being "Piled on" an organism. The evolutionary changes that ultimately result in "the fittest" for any specific environment are compiled as mini changes that occur on many of a generas individual species. Its always more productive to see how these changes are worked on the multiples of genera and species of a type of organism.
Its not uncommon to see evidence of a species to "reoccupy" a trait in the fossil record much later in time. NOW, was that an example of a true retro change? or was it merely the discovery of an earlier body type that, for some reason, was wtill living contemporaneously with the more "advanced " form.

WE dont really know and we make these pronouncements in NAture magazine.(Most of which are done because some science reporter needs to fill the quota on evolution for that issue).

Im being cynical I know, but Ive been in the racket too long to respect 24 hour science news cycles. Science still proceeds in the range of years and years, not in weeks and months.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:15 am
@farmerman,
That's a silky way of saying what I've been saying all along. That science reporting is entertainment which works by flattering its consumers into thinking they know more about science than they do. The focus is on some very narrow and not too difficult aspect of science and with the astute use of certain buzz-words the consumer is enabled to talk in that area as if he is well versed in science generally.

Which is okay by me. I don't want to spoil people's fun.

But when they go too far in thinking themselves scientific and start trying to use their easily acquired pop-science to infiltrate a liberal, even a Marxist and Feminist agenda, into schools in order to justify certain behaviour which traditional religion condemns, and do it in areas where religion is a communal institution, then they are foolish if they expect the opposition to simply lie down having being over-awed by their pseudo-scientific generalisations.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:19 am
@spendius,
Quote:
That's a silky way of saying what I've been saying all along.


I guess Im just a softy for communicating an idea rather than treading about wi' me Dexter paw raised in self congratulation Neh?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:46 am
@farmerman,
One cannot help being suffused with admiration effemm at your humble and modest self-abnegation.

Perhaps you feel you have much to be modest about.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 06:08 am
Quote:
From The Sunday Times
October 18, 2009
A particle God doesn’t want us to discover
Could the Large Hadron Collider be sabotaging itself from the future, as some physicists say
Jonathan Leake

Hadron Collider

Explosions, scientists arrested for alleged terrorism, mysterious breakdowns " recently Cern’s Large Hadron Collider (LHC) has begun to look like the world’s most ill-fated experiment.

Is it really nothing more than bad luck or is there something weirder at work? Such speculation generally belongs to the lunatic fringe, but serious scientists have begun to suggest that the frequency of Cern’s accidents and problems is far more than a coincidence.

The LHC, they suggest, may be sabotaging itself from the future " twisting time to generate a series of scientific setbacks that will prevent the machine fulfilling its destiny.

At first sight, this theory fits comfortably into the crackpot tradition linking the start-up of the LHC with terrible disasters. The best known is that the £3 billion particle accelerator might trigger a black hole capable of swallowing the Earth when it gets going. Scientists enjoy laughing at this one.

This time, however, their ridicule has been rather muted " because the time travel idea has come from two distinguished physicists who have backed it with rigorous mathematics.

What Holger Bech Nielsen, of the Niels Bohr Institute in Copenhagen, and Masao Ninomiya of the Yukawa Institute for Theoretical Physics in Kyoto, are suggesting is that the Higgs boson, the particle that physicists hope to produce with the collider, might be “abhorrent to nature”.

What does that mean? According to Nielsen, it means that the creation of the boson at some point in the future would then ripple backwards through time to put a stop to whatever it was that had created it in the first place.

This, says Nielsen, could explain why the LHC has been hit by mishaps ranging from an explosion during construction to a second big bang that followed its start-up. Whether the recent arrest of a leading physicist for alleged links with Al-Qaeda also counts is uncertain.

Nielsen’s idea has been likened to that of a man travelling back through time and killing his own grandfather. “Our theory suggests that any machine trying to make the Higgs shall have bad luck,” he said.

“It is based on mathematics, but you could explain it by saying that God rather hates Higgs particles and attempts to avoid them.”

His warnings come at a sensitive time for Cern, which is about to make its second attempt to fire up the LHC. The idea is to accelerate protons to almost the speed of light around the machine’s 17-mile underground circular racetrack and then smash them together.

In theory the machine will create tiny replicas of the primordial “big bang” fireball thought to have marked the creation of the universe. But if Nielsen and Ninomiya are right, this latest build-up will inevitably get nowhere, as will those that come after " until eventually Cern abandons the idea altogether.

This is, of course, far from being the first science scare linked to the LHC. Over the years it has been the target of protests, wild speculation and court injunctions.

Fiction writers have naturally seized on the subject. In Angels and Demons, Dan Brown sets out a diabolical plot in which the Vatican City is threatened with annihilation from a bomb based on antimatter stolen from Cern.

Blasphemy, a novel from Douglas Preston, the bestselling science-fiction author, draws on similar themes, with a story about a mad physicist who wants to use a particle accelerator to communicate with God. The physicist may be American and the machine located in America, rather than Switzerland, but the links are clear.

Even Five, the TV channel, has got in on the act by screening FlashForward, an American series based on Robert Sawyer’s novel of the same name in which the start-up of the LHC causes the Earth’s population to black out for two minutes when they experience visions of their personal futures 21 years hence. This gives them a chance to change that future.

Scientists normally hate to see their ideas perverted and twisted by the ignorant, but in recent years many physicists have learnt to welcome the way the LHC has become a part of popular culture. Cern even encourages film-makers to use the machine as a backdrop for their productions, often without charging them.

Nielsen presents them with a dilemma. Should they treat his suggestions as fact or fiction? Most would like to dismiss him, but his status means they have to offer some kind of science-based rebuttal.

James Gillies, a trained physicist who heads Cern’s communications department, said Nielsen’s idea was an interesting theory “but we know it doesn’t happen in reality”.

He explained that if Nielsen’s predictions were correct then whatever was stopping the LHC would also be stopping high-energy rays hitting the atmosphere. Since scientists can directly detect many such rays, “Nielsen must be wrong”, said Gillies.

He and others also believe that although such ideas have an element of fun, they risk distracting attention from the far more amazing ideas that the LHC will tackle once it gets going.

The Higgs boson, for example, is thought to give all other matter its mass, without which gravity could not work. If the LHC found the Higgs, it would open the door to solving all kinds of other mysteries about the origins and nature of matter. Another line of research aims to detect dark matter, which is thought to comprise about a quarter of the universe’s mass, but made out of a kind of particle that has so far proven impossible to detect.

However, perhaps the weirdest of all Cern’s aspirations for the LHC is to investigate extra dimensions of space. This idea, known as string theory, suggests there are many more dimensions to space than the four we can perceive.

At present these other dimensions are hidden, but smashing protons together in the LHC could produce gravitational anomalies, effectively tiny black holes, that would reveal their existence.

Some physicists suggest that when billions of pounds have been spent on the kit to probe such ideas, there is little need to invent new ones about time travel and self-sabotage.

History shows, however, it is unwise to dismiss too quickly ideas that are initially seen as science fiction. Peter Smith, a science historian and author of Doomsday Men, which looks at the links between science and popular culture, points out that what started as science fiction has often become the inspiration for big discoveries.

“Even the original idea of the ‘atomic bomb’ actually came not from scientists but from H G Wells in his 1914 novel The World Set Free,” he said.

“A scientist named Leo Szilard read it in 1932 and it gave him the inspiration to work out how to start the nuclear chain reaction needed to build a bomb. So the atom bomb has some of its origins in literature, as well as research.”

Some of Cern’s leading researchers also take Nielsen at least a little seriously. Brian Cox, professor of particle physics at Manchester University, said: “His ideas are theoretically valid. What he is doing is playing around at the edge of our knowledge, which is a good thing.

“He is pointing out that we don’t yet have a quantum theory of gravity, so we haven’t yet proved rigorously that sending information into the past isn’t possible.

“However, if time travellers do break into the LHC control room and pull the plug out of the wall, then I’ll refer you to my article supporting Nielsen’s theory that I wrote in 2025.”

This weekend, as the interest in his theories continued to grow, Nielsen was sounding more cautious. “We are seriously proposing the idea, but it is an ambitious theory, that’s all,” he said. “We already know it is not very likely to be true. If the LHC actually succeeds in discovering the Higgs boson, I guess we will have to think again.”


Quote:
James Gillies, a trained physicist who heads Cern’s communications department, said Nielsen’s idea was an interesting theory “but we know it doesn’t happen in reality”.

He explained that if Nielsen’s predictions were correct then whatever was stopping the LHC would also be stopping high-energy rays hitting the atmosphere. Since scientists can directly detect many such rays, “Nielsen must be wrong”, said Gillies.


Mr Gillies may well be a trained physicist but his explanation makes no sense to me.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 06:17 am
This is one reader's comment.

Quote:
Dave F wrote:
Yes, it is all a bit Douglas Adams. I'm reminded of a scene in HHGTTG where Slartibartfast says to Arthur Dent, "Hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied." This readily applies here: so long as the particle physicists can keep inventing particles, keep complicating their already hideously complicated theories, and keep arguing in the scientific press about whether there is - or is not - a Higgs boson, they'll keep themselves on the gravy train for life.


As you might readily imagine I am not unsympathetic.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 08:01 am
@spendius,
A discovery of the Higgs Boson will perhaps, even affect your life spendi. The "God" particle may, for all you know, result in the brewing of super batches of excellent sudzz.Youll be in HAdron Heaven
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 08:44 am
@farmerman,
It has already affected my life effemm. I bet there's a penny a bloody pint goes to pay for the bugger.

I daresay a few babies may have been produced in the surrounding countryside who wouldn't otherwise have appeared and one of them might be the GREAT WHITE WONDER.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 12:38 pm
@farmerman,
Maybe a nice batch of anti-matter sudzz? Bye Bye PSXXX
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 12:54 pm
(Gives a new meaning the poofism).
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 01:02 pm
@Lightwizard,
On a non-spendius vein. I recd' my renewal letter from NCSE. Its acting like A PBS station . They are now giving away free volumes of Richard Dawkins books with every subscription renewal. That sends a really stupid message and Ill let Dr SCott hear about my feelings re: Dr Dawkins.

1Hes a douche bag

2His acquaintance with evolutionary science has thinned to a spider thread thickness

3 His only mission of late is to just take religion apart, to Me thats becoming just another anti religious nut.

4 His arguments are so loaded with venom that hes giving ammo to the Creationists.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 01:32 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
They are now giving away free volumes of Richard Dawkins books with every subscription renewal.


I heard they were giving them away in Marks and Spencers with every purchase of two black puddings and an over-ripe peach.

He's lovely.

About your renewal letter----Spengler wrote-

Quote:
One can join or resign from an intellectual organisation as one pleases, for only one's waking-consciousness is involved. But to a cosmic unity one is committed, and committed with one's entire being.


Like in The Old Man and the Sea. The NCSE is a thing. Lifeless. You have a farm. Chuck it in the bin. Anything of importance the NCSE might say will be on the News. Buy the Mrs a new hat with the savings.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 04:23 pm
@farmerman,
It Dawson is attempting to be the antithesis of the opposition to The Discovery Institute, Behe and the rest of the bunch, he is failing because he's resorting to the same tactics. It's like trying to fight terrorism with terrorism which includes political assassinations. I agree that he has not even remotely put the time into keeping abreast of the intricacies of evolutionary science to maintain even a semblance of credibility. He obviously believes he can get away with it. If scientists did discover the journalistic "God Particle," he'd respond, nope, that's isn't God either. What a scramble of semantics this all has become. Einstein was befuddled that his theories did not operate at a sub-atomic level, in particular, gravity. Dawson can presume to do better by attempting to thwart religion?
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 04:30 pm
@Lightwizard,
Are you pissed Wiz? That was ridiculous.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 05:04 pm
@spendius,
You're an idiot.
 

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