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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 01:36 pm
You go ahead and write about blueberries, spendi. But you fool nobody. That's the kind of a find that scares the **** out of people like you.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 01:51 pm
http://www.randi.org/images/shopping/darwin_lg.gif

Evolution is much more believable than creation will ever be.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 02:15 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
You go ahead and write about blueberries, spendi. But you fool nobody. That's the kind of a find that scares the **** out of people like you.


Don't be so bloody silly Ed.

What is a bit worrying is that your professors and curators speak in the manner they did in wande's quote.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 08:40 am
OF SPECIAL INTEREST TO FARMERMAN
Quote:
A Caveman's Guide to Maine
(DownEast.com, June 18, 2009)

Maine’s evolutionary history, from wooly mammoths and pottery shards to mysterious mountains and hidden overlooks, is a tour in its own right.

Evolution doesn’t mean forgetting the past. In fact, our tour of bygone Maine reveals just how much yesterday can teach us about today. Let’s face it: Some people from away think Maine is stuck in the Dark Ages. Usually they’re basing that belief on the relative absence of BlackBerries (we’re more into blueberries) and the fact that you actually have to scout around to find a Starbucks or a Target here. But take a look around the Pine Tree State and you’ll see that a connection to the past really is a bit stronger here than elsewhere in the country. Where else can you find more Victorian houses per square mile, or tour a lighthouse that was commissioned by George Washington? Or climb a summit first reached by hunters and scouts defending themselves against the British, and see pretty much the same view.

You can make quite a summer itinerary by simply linking together the many sites in Maine that are largely identical today as they were centuries ago. The editors of Down East have done just that " beginning with a travel guide so easy to follow even a caveman could do it " and continuing with an in-depth explanation of the wild names behind some of Maine’s most popular mountain climbs. If looking backward makes us a little more old-fashioned than some of our big-city friends, we’ll just consider that an evolutionary step in the right direction.

Hal Borns has studied glacial geology from Antarctica to Europe, and he was struck by what he found along the Down East coast. “I’ve been working in eastern Maine off and on for the past ten or fifteen years,” says the UMaine Climate Change Institute’s founder and professor emeritus. “The record of glaciation is remarkable. The deposits are obvious, as opposed to some other places. They’re exposed because of blueberrying operations and they’re not buried by cities.” The Ice-Age carving of the underlying granite by retreating glaciers was so impressive " and unique in the United States " Borns decided the public had to know about it. So he set about creating Maine’s Ice Age Trail (of course, he had a lot of help). The forty-six-stop tour, concentrated for the most part east of Ellsworth, explores the landscape from a prehistoric point of view. Highlighting glacial carvings and unique geologic formations left behind when the giant ice slabs slid off to the south, the tour gives you an idea of what Maine looked like back when everyone had oversized brows and big underbites.

Officially launched with the publication of a map in 2006, the trail has close to fifty sites now, from the top of Cadillac Mountain all the way to a peat bog at West Quoddy Head. Some of these locations are truly spectacular in their own right " Somes Sound, the Bubbles, Schoodic Peninsula, Tunk Lake " but they’re all the more interesting if you understand the fascinating natural history behind them. Fossils, erratics " even a drowned forest " it’s all the result of massive chunks of ice sculpting the landscape, like an old-timer with his chisel. A lot of the trail travels through Acadia, state parks, and other very popular areas, so you shouldn’t have much trouble talking the whole family into taking your evolutionary tour.

The trail was sponsored by the National Science Foundation, the Maine Department of Transportation, the National Park Service, and a host of other federal and state agencies " even UHaul pitched in, painting an Ice Age Trail scene on 1,200 of its trucks. You can get all the details and find out where to pick up a map at iceagetrail.umaine.edu

For the homeless caveman " or woman " there are actual caves in Maine. Or so they say. We’re not talking Carlsbad Caverns, but smaller grottoes " fissure caves by the sea, talus caves in the mountains, and limestone and marble caves along the coast. Perhaps the most appealing thing the state has to offer spelunkers " and troglodytes " is that its caves remain largely unvisited. (Outside of Acadia’s Ovens and the Allagash Ice Caves.) Those with actual names include: Fat Man’s Misery on Tumbledown Mountain, Inman’s Cave in Camden Hills State Park, and Murderer’s Cave near Bath. Moose Cave at Grafton Notch State Park, which features a boardwalk, might well be the most formal cave in the state. According to cavers at www.bostongrotto.org there have been caves reported at Squa Pan Public Reserved Land and up near the Quebec border around Rocky Brook. There’s also supposedly a cave in Orland in a place with the encouraging title of Cave Hill. And treasure seekers have long been trying to find a cave that is said to hold the gold of Captain Kidd near Blue Hill.

If you don’t know how to make fire (from sticks) don’t fret. Sign yourself up for a course at the Maine Primitive Skills School. Located on twenty-three woodland acres in Augusta, this twenty-year-old institution, founded in 1989 as the Good Earth School, teaches workshops in everything from survival to foraging to shamanic healing. “Earth Living 1: Primitive Survival” is the most basic course, including segments on water selection, hunting, trapping, shelter, and, yes, fire making. Caveman or not, it’s the sort of stuff everyone should know, but few people actually do. From there you can get into more evolved topics like healing with plants, preserving wild foods, making your own clothing, and creating baskets and pots. As a caveman, you’ll surely take to all of this and want more. You can sign up for scads of additional classes at the school or join the fun and do some networking at the Maine Primitive Gathering, an October conference of sorts for neo-primitives. Find out more by calling the Maine Primitive Skills School at 207-623-7298 or visit www.primitiveskills.com

Knuckle draggers are not usually drawn to museums. But any caveman will feel at home in a few of Maine’s history collections. The Maine State Museum (www.maine.gov/museum) is a fine place to start. Its permanent exhibit, 12,000 Years in Maine, features more than two thousand artifacts dating back to the last Ice Age. Walrus skulls and woolly mammoth tusks, Paleo-Indian weapon points, and fossils will take you back to the dawn of life Down East " or at least to midmorning.

Likewise, the Northern Maine Museum of Science (www.umpi.maine.edu/info/nmms/museum.htm) on the campus of UMaine Presque Isle, has a variety of items sure to put a smile on your oversized jaw. There, you’ll discover a model of a pterosaur " a flying dino with a wingspan of forty feet " as well as a cast of the ichthyosaurus, which was an aquatic reptile that looked somewhat like a dolphin. You’ll also find an exhibit that explores the physics of the T. Rex, another tooth from your old pal the woolly mammoth, and all kinds of fossils, including our very own Maine State Fossil, a primitive plant found in the Katahdin area during the Devonian Period. (That’s four hundred million years ago.)

The Hudson Museum (www.umaine.edu/hudsonmuseum) was a museum without walls for a while, sending its collections to places like the Hutchinson Center in Belfast, Husson University, and the University of Maine at Machias while the museum’s home at the Maine Center for the Arts on the campus of the University of Maine at Orono was renovated. The Hudson Museum is now being reborn on the second floor of the Collins Center for the Arts, offering the public the chance to see one of the greatest mesoamerican collections in America. (The Hudson’s grand opening won’t be held until this fall, but if you drop by this summer you can get a great sneak peek at this impressive exhibit.) These artifacts from the state’s prehistory don’t date back quite as far as the Devonian Period, but they will connect you to your more recent cousins.

And don’t forget the Abbe Museum (www.abbemuseum.org) in Bar Harbor. The formal name of this place is the Robert Abbe Museum of Stone Age Antiquities, so you know it’s going to be good. Founded in 1926, the museum was formerly a tiny place at Acadia National Park’s Sieur de Monts Spring, but it expanded into a fancy downtown home in 2001. Inside, you’ll find fifty thousand pieces representing ten thousand years of Down East history, tools, points, skins.

There’s something both preschool " and prehistoric " about digging in the dirt. If spades and trowels and the potential of unearthing a mastodon jawbone appeal to you, then you may want to consider signing up for the Abbe Museum’s archaeological field school. These week-long courses take you to dig sites Down East where the museum believes there are prehistoric pieces to be found. Recent courses have been held at a shell midden site in Sorrento, where participants spent days sifting through the dirt looking for pot shards, stone tools, and bones. Fieldwork is complemented by lectures and time in the lab, giving you a real understanding of the processes of archaeology. This year the program returns to Sorrento, excavating a site first explored by the Abbe in 1939. The course costs $350 for members, $450 for non-members. Find out more at www.abbemuseum.org/pages/
archaeology/archaeology-field-school-focus.html

Troglodyte Timeline
15,000 BC The last glacier over Maine, known as the Wisconsin glaciation, begins to slide away.
8,500 BC Maine’s first humans " Paleo-Indians " set up camp, migrate to prime waterfront real estate, learn to canoe.
8,000-5,500 BC Paleo-Indians appear to have made like summercators and left " the population dramatically recedes.
4,500-4,000 BC People start moving back. The Atlantic is washing up near the foot of Katahdin.
2,000-1,500 BC Birchbark canoes first appear.
4,000-1,000 BC Era of Maine’s famous ochre-lovers, the Red Paint people.
1,000 B.C.-1,500 A.D. Ceramic Period. Early Mainers learn how to make souvenirs (pottery).
Source: Maine Historic Preservation Commission
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 09:47 am
@wandeljw,
Bloody sales patter again.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 10:28 am
@wandeljw,
To show you that theres rarely a thing called "Settled science",Im a complete holdout to the theory that the sea lapped near Katahdin during the "ice out" period.
As the ice melted,the continental area began to rebound . The ocean was inundating areas faster than it could rebound but, (theres always a But). The melting glaciers formed a type of moraine called a degeer moraine. that looks almost like an inundation cycle. The glacier, as it melted, became "stuck on the ground area" and melted large areas of what looked like fluvial or marine sediments coming from the SE. In actuality, a good sedimentologist will tell you that, because the pebbles from the glacier meltwater, ALWAYS, stack up like a deck of cards with the tops of the cards pointing toward the glaciers position. The degeer glacier in and near Katahdin (called the "Golden Road" terminus has long been studied by grad students in glaciology and found to be a water borne deposit from fresh water melts pointing to the NW ( toward the glacier).

The "real" inundation areas are marked by what is known as the "PRESUMPSCOT FORMATION". This is a neat dogs breakfast hash of rock,sands, clay all full of Pleistocene clams and scallop shells as big as a Victorian Dinner plate andfish and whale bones . The Presumpscot is clearly marked in its terminus . It reached no farther inland than about 30 mi NE of Bangor near the town of MEDWAY. This is the most upland location of a Presumpscott outcrop.Its pretty neat though, because its halfway up a hill and one can actually se how the post glacial land rose up in response to the unweighting of 2 mi thick wedge of ice. (Im using this area in my book because its important to a geology student to know how we can decipher stuff like "How do we know the land was rising up AFTER the glaciers went back home?


Im gonna have to get the Down EAST magazine issue. SOunds like the regional musuem s are worth a day hop or two. (Im planning to do my field tripping in Maine and NH in thne spring and fall of 2010. Im concentrating on the Southern Appalachians for now, and my most northern outcrops are in n Pennsylvania.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 02:20 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
"How do we know the land was rising up AFTER the glaciers went back home?


They can measure the land going up and down as the tide goes in and out and glaciers are a lot heavier than tides so it's bloody obvious the land would rise after the glaciers melted.

That "went back home" is like a kiddies bedtime story. It's in that literary style of Budgie the helicopter being put down in its cot, perfected by the Duchess of York.

And this--

Quote:
In actuality, a good sedimentologist will tell you that, because the pebbles from the glacier meltwater, ALWAYS, stack up like a deck of cards with the tops of the cards pointing toward the glaciers position.


is even more ridiculous. Cards are the same both ways up aren't they?

And what can anybody say to-

Quote:
This is a neat dogs breakfast hash of rock,sands, clay all full of Pleistocene clams and scallop shells as big as a Victorian Dinner plate andfish and whale bones .


One can only gaze dumbstruck.

If you're going to write a book effemm I would forget all about this homespun stuff if I was you. It's too affected.

Similies are dangerous territory for writers. They need a lot of thought and are best avoided if the effort is missing.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 08:23 pm
@wandeljw,
Cool. Maybe I'll have to hang out in Maine more often.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 04:20 am
@rosborne979,
Cool to me means quite the opposite to the sub-text of wande's ridiculous post.

Chris Gayle is cool.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 04:24 am
@spendius,
Quote:
. "Gayle needs to be given a lifetime ban for the crime of cool," thundered one broadsheet at the start of June.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 04:46 am
@rosborne979,
If you ever head up to Katahdin, its an interesting coupla miles downrange to see some of the most available pieces of evidence to interpret how the continental glaciers retreat caused rebound in the land. In sedimentology , its the only time in the law of Superposition (because the land was lifting) that the oldest wedges of sediment strata are at the top of the wedge, and the youngest are at the bottom.

Lotsa moose around there , so its best not to go stomping around in the fall unless you are heavily armed. Rest of the year they are mostly dumb as cows, (except for mama mooses).
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 09:15 am
@farmerman,
Mamma mia, mama mooses? I'm guessing they're dumb because they don't know their plural? Are there also deers, sheeps and mouses (not the kind one uses to make the hair stiff)? I'm thinking that was a typo and I'm working on my first cup of coffee so my fingers aren't yet working quite right either.

The isostatic rebound of the Great Lakes is a prime example of the Earth's evolution. The water level is on the rise now because of global warming but in 40,000 to 50,000 years, they will become the Great Puddles, Lake Erie totally dissapearing.

I don't know if this has been posted before or who has read it, but this is the NSTA position on teaching evolution in classrooms:

The Nature of Science and Scientific Theories
Science is a method of explaining the natural world. It assumes that anything that can be observed or measured is amenable to scientific investigation. Science also assumes that the universe operates according to regularities that can be discovered and understood through scientific investigations. The testing of various explanations of natural phenomena for their consistency with empirical data is an essential part of the methodology of science. Explanations that are not consistent with empirical evidence or cannot be tested empirically are not a part of science. As a result, explanations of natural phenomena that are not based on evidence but on myths, personal beliefs, religious values, and superstitions are not scientific. Furthermore, because science is limited to explaining natural phenomena through the use of empirical evidence, it cannot provide religious or ultimate explanations.

The most important scientific explanations are called “theories.” In ordinary speech, “theory” is often used to mean “guess” or “hunch,” whereas in scientific terminology, a theory is a set of universal statements that explain some aspect of the natural world. Theories are powerful tools. Scientists seek to develop theories that

•are firmly grounded in and based upon evidence;
•are logically consistent with other well-established principles;
•explain more than rival theories; and
•have the potential to lead to new knowledge.
The body of scientific knowledge changes as new observations and discoveries are made. Theories and other explanations change. New theories emerge, and other theories are modified or discarded. Throughout this process, theories are formulated and tested on the basis of evidence, internal consistency, and their explanatory power.

Evolution as a Unifying Concept
Evolution in the broadest sense can be defined as the idea that the universe has a history: that change through time has taken place. If we look today at the galaxies, stars, the planet Earth, and the life on planet Earth, we see that things today are different from what they were in the past: galaxies, stars, planets, and life forms have evolved. Biological evolution refers to the scientific theory that living things share ancestors from which they have diverged; it is called “descent with modification.” There is abundant and consistent evidence from astronomy, physics, biochemistry, geochronology, geology, biology, anthropology, and other sciences that evolution has taken place.

As such, evolution is a unifying concept for science. The National Science Education Standards recognizes that conceptual schemes such as evolution “unify science disciplines and provide students with powerful ideas to help them understand the natural world” (p. 104) and recommends evolution as one such scheme. In addition, Benchmarks for Science Literacy from AAAS’s Project 2061, as well as other national calls for science reform, all name evolution as a unifying concept because of its importance across the disciplines of science. Scientific disciplines with a historical component, such as astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology, cannot be taught with integrity if evolution is not emphasized.

There is no longer a debate among scientists about whether evolution has taken place. There is considerable debate about how evolution has taken place: What are the processes and mechanisms producing change, and what has happened specifically during the history of the universe? Scientists often disagree about their explanations. In any science, disagreements are subject to rules of evaluation. Scientific conclusions are tested by experiment and observation, and evolution, as with any aspect of theoretical science, is continually open to and subject to experimental and observational testing.

The importance of evolution is summarized as follows in the National Academy of Sciences publication Teaching about Evolution and the Nature of Science: “Few other ideas in science have had such a far-reaching impact on our thinking about ourselves and how we relate to the world” (p. 21).

Creationism and Other Non-Scientific Views
The National Science Education Standards note that, ” [e]xplanations of how the natural world changes based on myths, personal beliefs, religious values, mystical inspiration, superstition, or authority may be personally useful and socially relevant, but they are not scientific” (p. 201). Because science limits itself to natural explanations and not religious or ultimate ones, science teachers should neither advocate any religious interpretation of nature nor assert that religious interpretations of nature are not possible.

The word “creationism” has many meanings. In its broadest meaning, creationism is the idea that the universe is the consequence of something transcendent. Thus to Christians, Jews, and Muslims, God created; to the Navajo, the Hero Twins created; for Hindu Shaivites, the universe comes to exist as Shiva dances. In a narrower sense, “creationism” has come to mean “special creation” : the doctrine that the universe and all that is in it was created by God in essentially its present form, at one time. The most common variety of special creationism asserts that

•the Earth is very young;
•life was created by God;
•life appeared suddenly;
•kinds of organisms have not changed since the creation; and
•different life forms were designed to function in particular settings.
This version of special creation is derived from a literal interpretation of Biblical Genesis. It is a specific, sectarian religious belief that is not held by all religious people. Many Christians and Jews believe that God created through the process of evolution. Pope John Paul II, for example, issued a statement in 1996 that reiterated the Catholic position that God created and affirmed that the evidence for evolution from many scientific fields is very strong.

“Creation science” is a religious effort to support special creationism through methods of science. Teachers are often pressured to include it or other related nonscientific views such as “abrupt appearance theory,” “initial complexity theory,” “arguments against evolution,” or “intelligent design theory” when they teach evolution. Scientific creationist claims have been discredited by the available scientific evidence. They have no empirical power to explain the natural world and its diverse phenomena. Instead, creationists seek out supposed anomalies among many existing theories and accepted facts. Furthermore, “creation science” claims do not lead to new discoveries of scientific knowledge.

Legal Issues
Several judicial decisions have ruled on issues associated with the teaching of evolution and the imposition of mandates that “creation science” be taught when evolution is taught. The First Amendment of the Constitution requires that public institutions such as schools be religiously neutral; because “creation science” asserts a specific, sectarian religious view, it cannot be advocated in the public schools.

When Arkansas passed a law requiring “equal time” for “creation science” and evolution, the law was challenged in Federal District Court. Opponents of the bill included the religious leaders of the United Methodist, Episcopalian, Roman Catholic, African Methodist Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Southern Baptist churches, along with several educational organizations. After a full trial, the judge ruled that “creation science” did not qualify as a scientific theory (McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education, 529 F. Supp. 1255 [ED Ark. 1982]).

Louisiana's equal time law was challenged in court, and eventually reached the Supreme Court. In Edwards v. Aguillard [482 U.S. 578 (1987)], the court determined that “creation science” was inherently a religious idea and to mandate or advocate it in the public schools would be unconstitutional. Other court decisions have upheld the right of a district to require that a teacher teach evolution and not teach “creation science” (Webster v. New Lennox School District #122, 917 F.2d 1003 [7th Cir. 1990]; Peloza v. Capistrano Unified School District, 37 F.3d 517 [9th Cir. 1994]).

Some legislators and policy makers continue attempts to distort the teaching of evolution through mandates that would require teachers to teach evolution as “only a theory” or that require a textbook or lesson on evolution to be preceded by a disclaimer. Regardless of the legal status of these mandates, they are bad educational policy. Such policies have the effect of intimidating teachers, which may result in the de-emphasis or omission of evolution. As a consequence, the public will only be further confused about the nature of scientific theories. Furthermore, if students learn less about evolution, science literacy itself will suffer.

References
American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), Project 2061. (1993). Benchmarks for science literacy. New York: Oxford University Press.

Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578 (1987).

McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education, 529 F. Supp. 1255 (ED Ark. 1982).

National Academy of Sciences (NAS). (1998). Teaching about evolution and the nature of science. Washington, DC: Steering Committee on Science and Creationism, National Academy Press.

National Research Council. (1996). National science education standards. Washington, DC: National Academy Press.

Peloza v. Capistrano Unified School District, 37 F.3d 517 (9th Cir. 1994).

Webster v. New Lennox School District #122, 917 F.2d 1003 (7th Cir. 1990).

Additional Resources
Laudan, Larry. (1996). Beyond positivism and relativism: Theory, method, and evidence. Boulder, CO: Westview Press.

National Academy of Sciences (NAS). (1999). Science and creationism: A view from the National Academy of Sciences, Second Edition. Washington, DC: National Academy Press.

Ruse, Michael. (1996). But is it science: The philosophical question in the creation/evolution controversy. Amherst, NY: Prometheus.

Skehan, James W., S.J., and Nelson, Craig E. (1993). The creation controversy and the science classroom. Arlington, VA: National Science Teachers Association.








0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 10:16 am
What I find to be the most telling challenge to the teaching of evolution is the general mental state of those people who favour doing so.

Their individualistic perspective dominates all their pronouncements. And one might expect it to. The theory of evolution is the product of a very individualistic mind conditioned by the Protestant puritan ethic. It is a bourgeois mind-set which treats the individual as a unit of success or failure. Darwin thought himself a great success. He thought his class a great success too. As a magistrate he sat in judgment on the lower orders.

The theory sits well in the consciousness of those who think highly of themselves.

But what they so easily forget, perhaps it is on Ignore, is that only a few can be a success and that most people are the product of the conditions which shape them and which define the social reality surrounding them. Which is surprising as they are often to be seen rushing to judgment on activities in high places which any true Darwinian would applaud. They are like a peacock with crap tail feathers might be, had its long history equipped it with language, when faced with a rival with the prettiest tail feathers a lady peacock could ever hope to see displayed before her. Then they read Darwin and it is the pretty one which is the success. And meets with their approval. It's only a dipshit when they choose it to be. Which is subjectivity running amok. Scientists they claim to be too. Removing subjectivity from science has been a major philosophical problem for a very long time.

Any individualist philosophy partakes of exile and isolation from which it easily treats mankind as a collection of atomic individuals. It denigrates pubs, for example, trying to use alcoholism to justify itself when in actual fact it is the community centre nature of pubs which it fears. It would get laughed at in proper pubs.

Many writers have scrutinised the state, not least Stendhal with Sorel and Lawrence with Morel.

People who don't understand the problems of contemporary society and the effects of them are prone to become individualistic. It is a fairly convincing perspective in such cases.

The major problem is that individuals isolating themselves from social existence are politically ineffective. The congregation which threw effemm out of its meeting hall, after saying a few prayers and such like, then got busy carving up all the contracts leaving him to read about them in the paper once they were all done and dusted. Gnashing his teeth hopefully.

They manifest the most cloying and excruciating concern for their fellow man, a very safe choice, combined with a profound disgust at having to deal with such irrational and unreasonable beings. This comes through in everything they say.

And what they say betrays a very superficial interest in the subjects they hold forth on and an even more superficial interest in the language they have been supposedly learning for a great number of years. Quite a lot of them at the taxpayer's expense. And, obviously, no interest in the views of anybody else or in attempting to make their company worth seeking.

The theory of evolution would necessarily be taught by such types and the kids would emerge into the adult world as rabid individualists shrinking themselves into the screen of their mobile phone even in the pub.

D.H. Lawrence wrote in Studies in Classic American Literature-

Quote:
There is a basic hostility in all of us between the physical and the mental, the blood and the spirit. The mind is 'ashamed' of the blood. And the blood is destroyed by the mind.


Which is an echo of Spengler's "last battle" between Money and Blood. And looks towards Warhol's idea that the only art remaining is Money.

The anti-IDers on here have no sense of the blood, the spirit and the flesh. Or of the opposition between manual labour and mental labour. The farm is a "Dude Ranch". Such ideas are dismissed from their minds. There is only mind, money, and totalitarian blinkers. All the "problems" they see in others are thought of as individualistic problems are are never associated with the historical background from which they stem. They simply deny the importance of the historical background as no politician would ever dream of doing.

Hence their intolerance.
0 Replies
 
tenderfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 05:19 pm
What I find to be the most telling challenge to the teaching of RELIGION is the general mental state of those people who favor doing so. I would then like to add spendiouse's specktioneer's harpoon of stupidity into the body of science as it fits quite nicely against religion
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 05:40 pm
@tenderfoot,
Well- when I said that-

Quote:
Any individualist philosophy partakes of exile and isolation from which it easily treats mankind as a collection of atomic individuals.


I did not say that organised religion does not do exactly the same.

It's a battle for hearts and minds tf. A power struggle.

At least priests are amusing.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jun, 2009 06:45 pm
@spendius,
At least priests are amusing.

As they take your money, dignity and children's innocence.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jun, 2009 05:29 am
@edgarblythe,
Whenever spendi composes his lengthy circular clabber, he always leaves plenty of room for honest response that renders his contribution meaningless and funny. (Not that spendis the great wit, hes just the strait guy overly impressed with his own limitations).


All I can say to edgar is BADA BING
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jun, 2009 07:41 am
Quote:
Farewell, Justice Souter, defender of Mr. Jefferson’s wall
(By Charles C. Haynes, First Amendment Center, 06.21.09)

If you believe with Thomas Jefferson that the First Amendment builds “a high wall of separation between Church & State,” then you will sorely miss Justice David H. Souter when he retires from the U.S. Supreme Court this month.

Few justices in recent memory have been more vigorous in defending Mr. Jefferson’s wall against increasingly successful efforts by some on the Court to dismantle it brick by brick.

At the heart of Souter’s Jeffersonian argument is the conviction that government entanglement with religion has been a leading source of repression and conflict throughout history. Maintaining government neutrality toward religion, therefore, is not only a limitation on government " it’s also an indispensible condition for full religious liberty.

When the Supreme Court first applied the First Amendment’s establishment clause to the states in 1947 in Everson v. Board of Education, the justices invoked Jefferson to affirm a “high and impregnable” wall ensuring government neutrality that neither promotes nor inhibits religion.

But by the time Justice Souter joined the Court in 1990, Jefferson’s wall was considerably lower and full of holes. Souter tried to slow the erosion, dissenting from decisions allowing certain forms of state aid to religious schools (Agostini v. Felton, 1997; Mitchell v. Helms, 2000) and publicly funded vouchers for religious-school tuition (Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, 2002).

History teaches, Souter wrote in his Agostini dissent, “that religions supported by governments are compromised just as surely as the religious freedom of dissenters is burdened when the government supports religion.”

Despite setbacks for separation, Souter was on the winning side in a number of important decisions upholding government neutrality among religions and between religion and non-religion. He voted with the majority to strike down school-sponsored prayers in Lee v. Weisman (1992) and Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe (2000) and wrote the majority opinion in McCreary County v. ACLU of Kentucky (2005), a case involving courthouse displays of the Ten Commandments.

In ruling against the Ten Commandments displays, Souter focused on the religious purpose behind the government officials’ efforts to display the Decalogue, recalling history to warn against the dangers of state endorsement of religion.

“We are centuries away from the St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre and the treatment of heretics in early Massachusetts,” he wrote, “but the divisiveness of religion in current public life is inescapable. This is no time to deny the prudence of understanding the Establishment Clause to require the Government to stay neutral on religious belief, which is reserved for the conscience of the individual.”

Although advocates of strict separation are often portrayed in the culture wars as being hostile to religion (and sometimes they are), Souter belied that stereotype by endorsing a broad reading of the establishment clause precisely because he supported a high level of protection for the free exercise of religion.

Early in his tenure, Souter joined the majority to strike down a Hialeah, Fla., law that was clearly aimed at hindering the practice of the Santeria religion (Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye v. Hialeah, 1993). But he went further, calling on the Court to reconsider Employment Division v. Smith (II), a 1990 decision that most legal experts agree seriously weakened protection for religious freedom by making it much more difficult for religious people to get exemptions from generally applicable neutral laws that place a substantial burden on their religious practice.

The free-exercise clause, he argued, does more than protect religious people from laws that target religion (like the one in Hialeah). It also protects people from laws that may unintentionally hinder religious freedom. The First Amendment, Souter wrote, “was originally understood to preserve a right to engage in activities necessary to fulfill one’s duty to one’s God, unless those activities threatened the rights of others or the serious needs of the State.”

Souter’s warnings about the weakening of free-exercise protections " like his warnings about the weakening of Jefferson’s wall " have gone mostly unheeded by the current Court majority. You don’t have to agree with every opinion Justice Souter wrote to worry with him about the future of religious liberty in America.

On June 30, religious freedom loses a voice on the Court at a time when it most needs to be heard.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jun, 2009 07:59 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
As they take your money, dignity and children's innocence.


Name me somebody who doesn't do those things Ed and I'll go out and say a prayer for them. And parents are the worst offenders. Would you claim that parents don't practice a form of infanticide on the children of the poor. Take a look at infant mortality rates by region.

Priests are amusing though and that's all I said. Your answer is just too easy and cliched.

If you can follow a post I will write after the cricket has finished you might realise , if you can open your mind, who is destructive of dignity and innocence. Are you suggesting that the money is a large amount, is given involuntarily and has no value to the giver. You are basically attacking every transaction in the field of choice.

Meanwhile run Dylan's song of that name on your player. It's on U Tube I think.

You really shouldn't use words like that so casually.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jun, 2009 08:22 am
@spendius,
Is there a hole for me to get sick in? I was responding to your words. Any gratuitous adding on by you is too late.
0 Replies
 
 

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