Cutting and Purging

Rockhead wrote:

harassment...

Did I miss something?

You may have missed the "legal opinion" part. Or the "contractual obligation" part. Or TOS for the site in question. Or any number of other things you might usefully investigate instead of wasting anybody else's time online.

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Apparently we all missed something, not that I posted. 'pad was asking for opinions, and, frankly, he never wastes our time.

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High Seas ~

Thank you for your opinion, and the blast of sunshine from your ass...

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Rockhead wrote:

High Seas ~

Thank you for your opinion, and the blast of sunshine from your ass...

Ah, clearly a legal eagle at work here - at least you're aptly named, Blockhead. Misrepresentation isn't a possible charge against you - LOL Smile

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D'pad, one idea -- is there some sort of (there may be more than one) central association for student exchanges? If there is, one thing you can do is just tell the association that there's a website where you believe that exchange students are posting. Nothing more. No editorial comments, just, here's a place where the kids seem to be gathering (I say seem to because we all know that full honesty is rarely evidenced on the 'net).

Then the organization can decide what, if anything, it wants to do. It may be conscientious and check, and even go so far as to investigate. It may ignore your note. It may look and not realize what to look for. It may think you're a crank (although it shouldn't). Without getting into any specifics, all you're doing is telling the organization (and again I'm assuming there's some sort of formalized umbrella group, but there might not be) that there's a place online where people who might be the kids talk. I'm sure they talk about plenty aside from cutting, etc. The organization may even know about the site. Or, they might not have realized that they should be Googling for such things.

Anyway, that's not an invasion of anyone's privacy to say that the Internet is being used by people who may or may not be the kids and here's one place where they may be. I understand it may sound weaselly but that should protect you. You're just providing information, not raising huge red flags or outing anyone.

Simple information is fine. It's the Internet, and any Google search, done right, should bring it up. You could step back even further, and just suggest to the organization to do some Googling, and nothing more. What they do with that tip is their own concern. If anything plays out, it should be on that level, and not on yours.

Hope that makes sense; I'm trying to channel The Ethicist.

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Re: Cutting and Purging

dadpad wrote:

IWhat damage might informing on a kid who is purging/cutting do?

dadpad, I'd like to get back to this for a minute. As you know, there are innumerable family dynamics. Kids who SI or purge do so for reasons of their own. Sometimes it's a control issue, sometimes it's a moderate to severe emotional issue, sometimes it's to fit in with their friends.

I'm not exactly sure who you are thinking should be informed but if it's the parents then you should be very wary of putting yourself in the middle of an unknown family dynamic.

Many of the kids I used to interact with on BUS would post messages about how they were forced to find places to SI that their parents couldn't check (usually vaginally in the case of girls). I understand where your heart is but sometimes giving these kids resources to find help for themselves is the best you can do as an outsider.

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I'd also reiterate the fact that when more than one person is involved, there is no such thing as privacy no matter what the medium but especially on the internet.

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Re: Cutting and Purging

High Seas wrote:

dadpad wrote:

What damage might informing on a kid [...........]do?

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002702----000-.html

Quote:

N.B. I only looked into this thread to find out what the title meant; however the law is the same no matter what the electronic communication except in terrorism-related activities. Those "kids" are plotting nothing of the sort, and I find this idea of "informing" on them revolting, in addition to unlawful.

I suspect that there are a number of different interpretations, especially regarding what constitutes a "remote computing service," or what constitutes "the contents of a communication."

Especially since the messages are already in the public domain.

And the prohibition against revealing information about subscibers only applies to "governmental agenc[ies]."

Quote:

if the provider, in good faith, believes that an emergency involving danger of death or serious physical injury to any person requires disclosure without delay of information relating to the emergency;
(5) to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, in connection with a report submitted thereto under section 227 of the Victims of Child Abuse Act of 1990 (42 U.S.C. 13032); or
(6) to any person other than a governmental entity.

So, don't be an idiot.

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Re: Cutting and Purging

DrewDad wrote:

High Seas wrote:
dadpad wrote:

What damage might informing on a kid [...........]do?

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002702----000-.html

Quote:

N.B. I only looked into this thread to find out what the title meant; however the law is the same no matter what the electronic communication except in terrorism-related activities. Those "kids" are plotting nothing of the sort, and I find this idea of "informing" on them revolting, in addition to unlawful.

I suspect that there are a number of different interpretations, especially regarding what constitutes a "remote computing service," or what constitutes "the contents of a communication."

Especially since the messages are already in the public domain.

And the prohibition against revealing information about subscibers only applies to "governmental agenc[ies]."

Quote:
if the provider, in good faith, believes that an emergency involving danger of death or serious physical injury to any person requires disclosure without delay of information relating to the emergency;
(5) to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, in connection with a report submitted thereto under section 227 of the Victims of Child Abuse Act of 1990 (42 U.S.C. 13032); or
(6) to any person other than a governmental entity.

So, don't be an idiot.

Yeah....it is complex, which is why I think DP should get advice.

I actually doubt anyone in his position has any obligations, but so far everyone has talked AMERICAN law, and there are laws about mandatory notification in some states in Oz. BUT..I don't think DP is likely to be a mandated notifier, AND he has no direct knowledge of who these kids are.

I only know the obligations I have in my role...and the law is VERY vague in this area even for professionals who actually know who the child is.

It is open to professional judgment (and all you know is, if there's a bad outcome, you'll be crucified if the coroner finds it possible to do it to you.)

The issues are very complex around this stuff...and if DP is worried I just think, in his role, it would be easy to get clarity.

As for how much harm might it do to notify parents?

It might do incalculable and terrible harm, or it might be of great benefit...there is no way to know unless you know the individual kid, family, culture, supports available etc. etc.

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Thank you all very much for your insights opinions and links.

To the best of my knowledge I have no compulsory reporting obligation.

As a parent I would be seriously pissed if a person had the opportunity to inform me and did not.

There are umbrella organisations for these students and I believe they are aware of the site, however they are being excluded from this particular area. They could of course ask for access which admin may or may not grant.

High seas I don't find your vitriol all that helpfull but thanks for the legal links. I don't relish the idea of "informing" either. It was my intent to canvass opinions.

chai: Your right its just the internet these kids arn't real.... unless I choose to make it so.

I think dlowan is right, If I choose to act in any way including sympathy, support, and encouragement to find assistance I need legal advice. I may be just as guilty if I do nothing. Its a tough call.

I'll take a look at the links then I think link this discussion to the other forum so the other mods and admins can get some alternative views.

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DP...I added this after you posted:

As for how much harm might it do to notify parents?

It might do incalculable and terrible harm, or it might be of great benefit...there is no way to know unless you know the individual kid, family, culture, supports available etc. etc.

Actually, I just noted you were speaking not of parents, but "people closer to them than you". Who are these people? Exchange program managers?

I think the answer is the same......except I would find it harder not to tell responsible professionals, who might be able to just check on the kid subtly and offer support. But that would be a major and ugly can of worms.

I presume these kids are in responsible adult care? With people who would notice if they were bleeding to death, or dying of starvation? If so, I would be less worried.

Mostly self-harmers do not do serious damage, and anorexics will look pretty bad before they do themselves serious harm.

I would be more concerned if you have stuff like a kid speaking of serrious suicidal ideation, with a clear plan and the means.

We can anticipate a youth suicide cluster in the next few months, with the publicity surrounding the recent suicide of that poor young fella who was bullied.

Publicity about suicide predictably induces an increase in suicides, especially amongst young people...

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"As a parent I would be seriously pissed if a person had the opportunity to inform me and did not. "

Oh my yes.

This is why, after 18 years of them, I can't hack working with seriously disturbed adolescents any more.

Because of that exact and ongoing dilemma of when to tell and when to contain it.

It's interesting, where I used to work, we erred on the side of duty to warn and protect....sometimes at the cost of the therapeutic relationship. Of course, one would always hope to engage the kid in telling their carers with you.

Another agency dealing with kids 12 to 25 NEVER told, which scared the living bejesus out of us with the minors...I think hard experience has made them alter this policy somewhat.

Neither approach was clearly right or wrong, and the law was little guide from 14 up.

Where parents are abusive or not nurturing....oy veh!!! The balancing act was even harder.

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Quote:

Actually, I just noted you were speaking not of parents, but "people closer to them than you". Who are these people? Exchange program managers?

I think the answer is the same......except I would find it harder not to tell responsible professionals, who might be able to just check on the kid subtly and offer support. But that would be a major and ugly can of worms.

This is a very important point. The exchange managers I would expect to inform would generally be non professionals. Sometimes (almost always) just volunteers, I have no way of telling how the exchange co-ordinators might react. It is this point that makes me lean toward "not telling".

JPB's suggestion of the site "giving these kids resources to find help for themselves" is as far as I would now go having mulled it all over. I think the sites owners have some thinking to do on the legal side of things.

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dadpad wrote:

Quote:
Actually, I just noted you were speaking not of parents, but "people closer to them than you". Who are these people? Exchange program managers?

I think the answer is the same......except I would find it harder not to tell responsible professionals, who might be able to just check on the kid subtly and offer support. But that would be a major and ugly can of worms.

This is a very important point. The exchange managers I would expect to inform would generally be non professionals. Sometimes (almost always) just volunteers, I have no way of telling how the exchange co-ordinators might react. It is this point that makes me lean toward "not telling".

JPB's suggestion of the site "giving these kids resources to find help for themselves" is as far as I would now go having mulled it all over. I think the sites owners have some thinking to do on the legal side of things.

Wise, I think.

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dadpad wrote:

chai: Your right its just the internet these kids arn't real.... unless I choose to make it so.

What a damn hypocrite you are.

This thread and your "concern" make me laugh.

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Well naturally you're right chai, as you usually are. I mean I can't remember you ever being wrong.

I'd be concerned about what you think of me but I think I'll save my concern for people who matter.

There you go that ought to give you another good laugh.

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WTF?

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dadpad wrote:

I think I'll save my concern for people who matter.

and of course, you are the one who is privileged to decide who matters.

dlowan, as to your WTF.....

A while back, there was a thread going on where a member was experiencing a lot of distress, and was putting themselves in potential danger. The poster was receiving good advice from a lot of people, including dadpad.

The situation of this member truly concerned me very much, and something dadpad had written (can't remember now) led me to believe he had a lot o concern too.

I PM'd dadpad, with simply the message "I'm worried about (x), I really am"

I was informed by dadpad that "It's only the internet" and in so many words it wasn't "real".

I was utterly floored by his response, and told him how shocked I was, and how it didn't seem to be how he portrayed himself on the forum.

He basically told me it was my problem if I chose to belief what people where going through was real.

So, I've come to the conclusion that dadpad likes to put on a show on concern, but in reality for him it's all just words, but realizes words can make him look like a really great guy.

His defense is trying to deflect the statement I made off himself and onto me.

This is a serious thread, and cutting and purging is a serious matter. I cannot take the concern of the initator seriously, since I've experienced evidence to the contrary, and that as he admitted above, he chooses what is real and what is not.

sorry for the deflection of the thread. It seems a satisfactory resolution re the kids had been come to.

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Could the program set up a lecture about the subject? With resources for those who want more info.

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Quote:

So, I've come to the conclusion that dadpad likes to put on a show on concern, but in reality for him it's all just words, but realizes words can make him look like a really great guy.

Yep thats me all right. All talk no action. You got me pegged chai huh. Its amazing how you can be so accurate coming from a different country 1/2 way round the world around 20,000 miles away and never even heard my voice let alone met me.
It must be such burden to be right all the time, i really feel for you (or would if I cared 2 cents what you thought).

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Cutting and Purging

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