Selfishness - an undeserved bad reputation

vikorr wrote

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we must first look after ourselves (and love) ourselves, before we can look after (and love) others.

Krishnamurti wrote

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Where the self is, love is not

Meditational observation of "self" leads to its dissipation.

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And when you stop and think about it
You won't believe it's true
That all the love you've been giving
Has all been meant for you

Question
Justin Hayward
The Moody Blues

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Hi Fresco,

Glad to see you around this forum.

I know you don't believe in the concept of self. We have somewhat a disagreement on that. I don't believe that what I believe has any relevance to anyone else but myself, and that what I believe may or may not be wrong, and may or may not change as I grow. What exists is what I define as self.

While the dissipation of self may be of benefit to some (though they would argue it is of benefit to all), and while I agree that letting go of ones attachments (to a degree) is beneficial, I prefer dealing with things as most people understand and see them...otherwise we start talking a foreign language.

Letting go, and looking after self is not contradictory, but is the balance of the whole being...though I seem to be one of the few that thinks this (if any others do at all).

Hence why I think selfishness is necessary :wink:

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vikorr,

The use of that word "benefit" indicates you are in another ball game compared with writers like Krishnamurti. The key point is that all "existence" is relationship. Concepts of "selves" and "others" are reflections of such relationship. So called "selfishness" involves current "self 2" in relationship to recent "self 1". Its a game we play with internal dialogue....and the seminal question to ask is "between whom ?".

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The use of that word "benefit" indicates you are in another ball game compared with writers like Krishnamurti.

Hi Fresco, I know of Krishnamurti (having seen his name on a book I considered buying) but have not read him. As for the use of the word benefit, there are many other ways that I could have phrased that, which would also fit my beliefs. I don't know if they match his ideas or not.

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The key point is that all "existence" is relationship.

Sounds fair enough

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Concepts of "selves" and "others" are reflections of such relationship.

Also sounds fair enough

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So called "selfishness" involves current "self 2" in relationship to recent "self 1".

Self 1 & 2 weren't defined, so this isn't posisble to follow.

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Its a game we play with internal dialogue....and the seminal question to ask is "between whom ?".

Our sense of self does come down almost entirely to internal dialogue. How much genetics plays in it I'm not entirely sure. How much our bodies chemicals/hormones play I don't really know.

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Well, it's all about you, isn't it?

Actually, I think it's wise to be "healthily selfish," but that's a balancing act.

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Re: Selfishness - an undeserved bad reputation

vikorr wrote:

Yet the extreme opposite - giving everything of yourself - is pointedly ridiculous

vikorr wrote:

Of course complete selfishness is a different matter (just as is complete giving of yourself)

True enough, which is perhaps an indication that there's little utility in approaching the problem of selfishness and selflessness from the perspective of extreme opposites. Most beliefs and doctrines are going to look foolish when they are shown in their most extreme forms. As you suggest, there are some occasions where a little selfishness is warranted, and other occasions where a little selflessness is warranted. I'm happy to leave it at that, and let ideologues and philosophers fight over the extremes.

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So called "selfishness" involves current "self 2" in relationship to recent "self 1".

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Self 1 & 2 weren't defined, so this isn't posisble to follow.

Self 1 was a mental state which was a function the relationship between an individual and its then social environment. Over time (by assimilation and accommodation) self 1 undergoes transition to self 2 which actively "perceives" a different social environment containing self 1 as a " social other"...etc. Active perception usually involves value judgements which can include "selfishness", "guilt" and "self esteem". The "trick" is to see beyond those value judgements which then become transitory and insignificant in the general dynamics of "being".

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I basically follow what you are saying about self 1 & 2, yet it reminds me of a friend of mine who at the start of having an affair, had the fellow who was seeing her say to her "That (your marriage) is your normal life, and this (the affair) is your other life". And yet she only has the one single life, the one life.

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Active perception usually involves value judgements which can include "selfishness", "guilt" and "self esteem". The "trick" is to see beyond those value judgements which then become transitory and insignificant in the general dynamics of "being".

We 'can' include a value judgement when using the word selfishness, but the word itself isn't necessarily a product of a value judgement.

I know you have an issue with the word self, so for the sake of this exercise, lets define self as the entity that contains a persons body/mind/spirit. Anything done for that entity is done for the self, and is by definition, selfish. Anything done for others is done for reason of the interconnection that we all take part in / are part of.

Being sexual beings, our bodies have sexual needs, and this affects our minds. Being social beings, our spirit has needs, and this affects our minds. Being beings who strive for survival and reproduction, genetics affects our minds. They affect our mind in a way that is easiest termed a 'need'. Meeting our needs is both an exercise in selfishness and in interrelatedness.

Granted our sense of 'identity' often creates unnecessary 'needs'.

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Vikorr,

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I basically follow what you are saying about self 1 & 2, yet it reminds me of a friend of mine who at the start of having an affair, had the fellow who was seeing her say to her "That (your marriage) is your normal life, and this (the affair) is your other life". And yet she only has the one single life, the one life.

The error for me is that word "she" which has no more continuity or unity than "I". Both are functional labels implying permanence within the flux, but such permanence can only be (partially) ascribed to physical entities not social entities.

I feel I am making philosophical points, whereas you are making psychological points. You position starts with assumptions about "free will" etc which my position need not assume. Indeed for me ( Smile

) ontological issues of "the general nature of reality" supercede sub-issues like "the existence of self". That is why I find difficulty communing with your definition of "self" you have proposed. At the pychological level, such definitions might work for limited therapeutic purposes (as did complex Freudian definitions etc) but they would lack appeal for followers of writers like Krishnamurti who rejected all "systems" and "therapy".

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I think you've touched upon our Puritan heritage with the word selfish. In Eastern cultures they more readily use the word selfless, which is inherently woven into their lives in the form of prayer, meditation and a healthy respect for life.

Part of the conflict comes, I beleive, in how materialistic our culture is. Add to this, the self-help industry which is making those desperate for improvement little puppets of the publishing industry.

Most people I know, and like, are selfish. They know how to get what they need for themselves and live accordingly.

But my favorite people are the ones who have taken care of themselves and Give of themselves. They are a harder breed to find.

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vikorr wrote:

Letting go, and looking after self is not contradictory, but is the balance of the whole being...though I seem to be one of the few that thinks this (if any others do at all).

I agree with you on this.

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Thanks Gala

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But my favorite people are the ones who have taken care of themselves and Give of themselves. They are a harder breed to find.

Same

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The error for me is that word "she" which has no more continuity or unity than "I". Both are functional labels implying permanence within the flux, but such permanence can only be (partially) ascribed to physical entities not social entities.

How about 'it'(?), although 'she' does describe the female sex in any species. I think we sometimes use the same words, but with different definitions Smile

Btw, I didn't see any psychological definition in defining 'self' as ones body, mind and spirit....all 3 exist (though some may debate the existance of spirit).

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Vikorr,

"It" is good ! Try using it when observing yourself....It is angry...It is walking down the road...etc. If you've never tried this you are in for some surprises one of which might be that that previous word "benefit" becomes deconstructed. Such practices as this, which might loosely be called "meditational" are essential for an appreciation of the metalogic of "nonself". You cannot learn to swim from the poolside.

I ascribe all definitions involving "mind" as "psychological" (or psychoanalytic at least) I'm discounting the word "spirit" on an individual basis, as nebulous, although I might claim that "spirituality" is meaningful as a state of selflessness.

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Selfishness - an undeserved bad reputation

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