4
   

Oil Vs. Alternative Energy

 
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 12:00 am
NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, ACTUAL INFORMATION ABOUT ALTERNATIVE ENERGY ADVANCEMENTS.

TO SUMMARIZE THE FOLLOWING

Daniel Nocera, a chemistry professor at MIT, and Matthew Kanan, a postdoctoral fellow in Nocera's lab, have developed a less expensive storage technology so energy captured when the sun shines can be stored to be used at night or on cloudy days.

They both made a catalyst consisting of cobalt metal, phosphate and an electrode that can generate oxygen by splitting water into its basic molecules, that is, oxygen and hydrogen gas.

The oxygen and hydrogen then can be combined inside a fuel cell, generating carbon-free electricity that can power a house or an electric car, whether it is day or night.

The researchers were inspired by the photosynthesis performed by plants to come up with a simple, inexpensive, highly efficient process.

Outside the laboratory, the process will use the sun's energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen gases, which can be recombined in a fuel cell to create electricity and for storing solar energy.



Quote:


http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9111578&intsrc=news_ts_head



http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/solarcells-0710.html

Cheaper, More Efficient Solar Cells
A new type of material could allow solar cells to harvest far more light.

http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18415/?a=f

http://www.technologyreview.com/files/9552/Kevin_ART.jpg


Quote:
Better solar: In conventional solar cells (a), light (dashed line) enters an antireflective layer (yellow) and then a layer of silicon (green) in which much of the light is converted into electricity. But some of the light (solid arrows) reflects off an aluminum backing, returns through the silicon, and exits without generating electricity. A new material (represented by the dots in ) makes it possible to convert more of this light into electricity. Instead of reflecting back out of the solar cell, the light is diffracted by one layer of the material (larger dots). This causes the light to reenter the silicon at a low angle, at which point it bounces around until it is absorbed. The light that makes it through the first layer is reflected by the second layer of material (smaller dots) before being diffracted into the silicon.



When one considers that the Americans went to war twice in a dozen years to maintain their oil supplies at a cost of about $2,000,000,000,000, would it not make sense to invest a mere fraction of that into solar energy advancements?

btw I just noticed the post count of several posters, and oh, sweet Jesus; for you guys who have posted in the tens of thousands, please, get a life outside of A2K.

WE NOW RETURN YOU TO THE "WHO HAS THE BIGGER PENIS" DISCUSSION TO WHICH THIS THREAD HAS DEVOLVED.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 03:40 am
kuvasz-

Quote:
btw I just noticed the post count of several posters, and oh, sweet Jesus; for you guys who have posted in the tens of thousands, please, get a life outside of A2K.


That's a rather silly thing to say. What have you in mind?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 06:00 am
Okie, interesting observations but seemes to me that you are hopelessly partisan. The Carter energy incentives were the only attempts in our history to "kick start" alternative energy, whether you agree or not. I know its a mantra by the Right side of the aisle to deplore Carter for his other shortcomings of which I cant deny. However, in energy, he was a prescient wizrd and he supported an approach of development of new oil ( witness the number of drilling starts that occured in his 4 years), he was a nuclear engineer with respect for the nuclear industry even after TMI. He tried to incentivise new energy reserach (the majority of which were dumped by the reagan regime).

HAd we followed Mr Carter, wed be way up the energy totem pole than we are now.

Kuvasz , as one of the multi yeared mega posters I say, "So what if I tend to spend my spare time on these forums"? I enjoy reading others opinions without getting all personally in a twist (like you often do). These threads can be quite interesting even the whacky ones. Theres lots of time to do many things and this is one pastime from which I derive pleasure. SO "getting a life" is an interesting call. I have one and am enjoying quite nicely thank you. Tody we sail off to some islands and Ill even take my notebook along if we see some net cafes or hot spots at some of the marinas we tie up at. If not, Ill be back on line sometime by next week . BFD.

The "get a life" admonition doesnt work anymore since Im sure you (like me) are active on a professional network for your craft , (I am always checking in on our GSA web centers, I profit from this rapid communication media ). I learn alot from all sides herein regarding my specific hot button items of interest and again, I profit mightily(This requires some ability to admit that we each dont know everything)
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 11:46 am
farmerman wrote:
Okie, interesting observations but seemes to me that you are hopelessly partisan. The Carter energy incentives were the only attempts in our history to "kick start" alternative energy, whether you agree or not. I know its a mantra by the Right side of the aisle to deplore Carter for his other shortcomings of which I cant deny. However, in energy, he was a prescient wizrd and he supported an approach of development of new oil ( witness the number of drilling starts that occured in his 4 years), he was a nuclear engineer with respect for the nuclear industry even after TMI. He tried to incentivise new energy reserach (the majority of which were dumped by the reagan regime).

HAd we followed Mr Carter, wed be way up the energy totem pole than we are now.

Thanks for the reply. I am hopelessly partisan, but partisan in this respect, and that is I think for very sound reasons, I happen to think Democrats trust government far too much to provide solutions, while Republicans, although far from ideal, offer the best current alignment toward free market solutions, and common sense trust in the ingenuity of man and free enterprise if not meddled with too much or hindered.

Further, aside from politicians, many of the so-called public interest groups aligned with the Democratic Party are very anti-progress in terms of business. They are obstructionists and that is an undeniable fact. Farmerman, you speak of nuclear as well as Carter having experience in that field, whether Carter realized it or not, it was liberal groups that support Democrats that basically killed that industry from further growth in this country about 30 years ago. I know because I was involved in that industry, and it cost me my job and career in that field. That is what I am talking about when I talk about the law of unintended consequences when the government meddles with the market.

I am partisan because I believe the market is a good indicator of the most efficient energy usage. Libs will argue that oil companies are subsidized, which I do not believe any more than many other industries are subsidized. We are talking about tax breaks and incentives, in regard to investment in drilling and oil production, and although they take different forms from industry to industry, I do not believe oil companies are propped up by the government. It is just a simple reality that oil works, it is dependable, and a hugely economical engine to our industrial world, there is just no getting around it.

I appreciate your contibution to the discussion here, wherein you offer real data and facts, which is commonly missing from the subject of oil. Oil companies make nice whipping boys for the Democrats, but I think it is based largely on ignorance and a basic dislike of capitalism.

I personally do not have much confidence in government research programs and solutions ahead of the market dictating what will happen in regard to energy. You can research all you want, but until the technology is feasible in an economic way, it is largely spinning the wheels. We can offer tax incentives, thats all well and good, but again the energy must be feasible and profitable, otherwise unintended consequences kicks in. I don't see a need to panic. We are seeing progress in the way of solar and wind and other things, but it won't happen overnight, it will be a gradual process. But most importantly, we need to fight the obstructionists to progress and unleash the ingenuity of business and the market onto the this problem. And we definitely need more oil, more drilling, as a bridge to the future, to ease the pain as the process unfolds. Here again, Democrats oppose this, and they are wrong again. That is why I am partisan.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 11:49 am
Quote:

I am partisan because I believe the market is a good indicator of the most efficient energy usage


Here's your problem; the market is a good indicator of the CHEAPEST energy usage, when pollution is not factored in. Not the most efficient, not by a long shot!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 11:53 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

I am partisan because I believe the market is a good indicator of the most efficient energy usage


Here's your problem; the market is a good indicator of the CHEAPEST energy usage, when pollution is not factored in. Not the most efficient, not by a long shot!

Cycloptichorn

Earth to cyclops, cheapest is one pretty good indicator on the side of efficiency. Cost means something. It means there may be alot more expense in terms of labor and materials.

We've had this discussion before, and I agree there may be factors other than cost, such as longterm disposal costs not covered by the industry, but cost is a biggee, probably the main one. And on a case by case basis, I think it would be incumbent upon you to prove there are other factors besides cost that proves you have a case for going with a higher priced products or energy sources, and you better have a very good case because cost covers alot of ground.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 11:58 am
Quote:

Earth to cyclops, cheapest is one pretty good indicator on the side of efficiency.


I'm sorry, but this is perfectly incorrect. Price is not a measurement of efficiency, but a measurement of supply. Internal combustion engines are HIGHLY inefficient and produce large amounts of pollution through their usage; the only reason we use oil to power machines is the fact that it was previously an abundant resource, NOT because it has any special efficiency.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 12:02 pm
Yeah sure, cyclops, okay, come up with your most efficient engine that is better than internal combustion, and explain why it is. Then sell it, and you should make your billions by eliminating internal combustion engines.

You are comical, but hardly to be taken seriously when it comes to reality and engineering.

Why don't you apply for a job with Ford or GM, you could save their companies?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 12:15 pm
By the way, I agree with McCain, or I am glad McCain has apparently come around to the common sense approach that I have always endorsed, which is "all of the above." Let the energy sources fight it out, let it be a healthy, all out, fair competition, and the economy will flourish. What we don't need is a bunch of do-gooders doing too much central planning and obstructing progress.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/08/05/mccain-visit-to-nuclear-power-plant-signals-all-of-the-above-approach-to-energy/
0 Replies
 
Avatar ADV
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 01:33 pm
One points out that efficiency can be measured in several respects.

The internal combustion engine is not efficient if you're measuring in terms of "how much energy can you extract from a given quantity of petrochemicals" and comparing it to an electricity-generating installation. But part of that is also "this engine can produce the requisite motive power", "the engine costs less than alternative installations", and especially "this engine can accommodate a long range". ;p
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 01:49 pm
The Republicans, paid off by the oil companies, stand in the way of alternative approaches.


ENERGY
A Stunt-Driven Agenda

On Friday, the House was scheduled to close for its regular August recess. House conservatives, however, refused to leave the floor, demanding a vote on offshore drilling. With the C-SPAN cameras and the House floor lights turned off, a handful of conservatives stuck around for over five hours "to attack Democrats for leaving town without doing something to lower gas prices." "Eighteen times over the past 90 days, the minority tried, unsuccessfully, to force the House to adjourn. Now the House has finally adjourned -- for a five-week recess, no less -- and Republicans are demanding that the chamber be called back into session," the Washington Post's Dana Milbank observed. Believing "they have struck political gold with American voters," conservatives are lauding their stagecraft in the most grandiose terms. "Today is the 2008 version of the Boston Tea Party," exclaimed Rep John Shadegg (R-AZ). "[L]ike the founders of this country we're going directly to the American people," boasted Rep. Tim Price (R-GA). "This could be America's greatest hour," crowed Rep. Don Manzullo (R-IL). Conservatives extended the theatrics yesterday and have declared they will continue their floor protests for "as long as it takes." House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-MD) called their tactics "stunts" that amount to little more than "transparent political effort to manufacture headlines." Even President Bush isn't falling for it. Although the House conservatives have asked him to call an emergency session of Congress, Bush refused.

CONSERVATIVE OBSTRUCTION ON ENERGY: House conservatives are not looking for any fix to gas prices: They are intent on drilling and drilling only -- and simultaneously filling Big Oil's coffers. These same conservatives have voted to block legislation that would have released oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, block legislation banning price gouging, and block legislation requiring oil companies to first drill on the land already leaded to them. Conservative leaders have blocked or voted "no" on eight different energy bills aimed at addressing rising prices, including bills that raised vehicle fuel efficiency, provided tax incentives for renewable energy, invested in energy efficiency, required a 15 percent renewable electricity standard, and expanded commuter rail and bus services while reducing transit fares. Opening new offshore sites to drilling is a boon only to Big Oil companies, and they have responded to conservatives' efforts by opening their wallets. Just in the last year, House Minority Whip Roy Blunt (R-MO), one of the leaders of the floor standoff, has received more than nearly $100,000 from the oil and gas industries, with $20,000 from Chevron alone.

LAZIEST CONGRESS WANTS TO WORK?: In a press conference yesterday, Rep. Wally Herger (R-CA) demanded that Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) "allow us to come back from our vacation, and work here." Rep. Adam Putnam (R-FL) said Friday, "This band of brothers here is staying late to make a point to the American people: We want to work." His colleagues then chanted: "Work, work, work." Yet House conservatives have hardly been known for their work ethic. In 2007, when Pelosi shook up the "Do-Nothing Congress" of 2005 and 2006 by implementing a five-day work week, conservatives were furious. "Democrats could care less about families -- that's what this says," Rep. Jack Kingston (R-GA) complained. He defended the three-day week used under the conservative majority, declaring they could keep in touch with Washington "with BlackBerrys" and cell phones. In fact, the 109th Congress -- the last under conservative leadership -- was in session for a grand total of 103 days in 2006, and "failed to enact a host of once top-priority legislation" on issues such as Social Security, immigration, and ethics reform. As Rep. Jim Cooper (D-TN) said of the 109th's pathetic work schedule, ""t's really bad news for America because we're simply not doing our jobs. They're paying us full salaries, but we're not working full time."

A STUNT, NOT A SOLUTION: Not only are conservatives engaging in a meaningless political stunt, but their policy prescriptive -- offshore drilling -- is also nothing but a gimmick. Opening more offshore areas to drilling "would not have a significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices before 2030," according to the Energy Information Administration. Earlier this summer, the government's "top energy forecaster" said of offshore drilling: "It doesn't affect prices that much." Meanwhile, Republicans are mocking common-sense solutions like inflating your tires and tuning your engine, which "could save more barrels of oil in one year than new offshore drilling could produce in four." In the long term, Americans need an energy solution that prioritizes independence from fossil fuels altogether to help with the rising costs of gas -- not political stunts and empty gimmicks.

--americanprogressaction.org
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 02:07 pm
Advocate quoted-

Quote:
Republicans are mocking common-sense solutions like inflating your tires and tuning your engine, which "could save more barrels of oil in one year than new offshore drilling could produce in four."


Hang on--farmerman said offshore drilling is the answer to a maiden's prayer. Right here on this very thread. And he's an expert.

What's "more than nearly $100,000" ?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 02:15 pm
Spendy, congrats, you jumped on the one weak spot in the piece. However, for some reason, you fail to address the strong statements of truth throughout the piece.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 03:27 pm
Well--I don't remember which thread it was earlier where I asked whether it was all about tarring Mr Obama with expensive gas prices? Click on my UN and it'll be on the first page.

It's a stunt.

What do you think are the strong statements of truth in it? It's nature as bullshit?

I'm really going to have to do something about my cynicism. It makes my ribs ache too much.
0 Replies
 
Avatar ADV
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 03:59 pm
I'm willing to admit that the Republicans hanging around Washington is definitely in the "stunt" category.

That said, it's actually quite a weak piece. Releasing oil from the Strategic Reserve is counterproductive - you get a short-term price drop, but either the price rebounds when you re-buy oil to fill it back up, or you reduce the amount IN the reserve, adding to the risk premium that's one of the factors that has caused the increase in the price of oil to begin with.

Likewise, price gouging isn't part of the problem. I'm not saying that legislation banning it is appropriate, in cases of emergency such as natural disasters, but it's not something that affects our country's energy policy as a whole.

Renewables -are not yet a solution-. They're getting better, but they're still not really price-competitive even at today's petroleum prices. Again, there's nothing wrong with investing in technologies that will pay off in the future, but that's still not a solution in and of itself. Take AIDS research for an example - we've been working on it for twenty years, we've learned a lot about the virus, we've got several promising approaches to treatment... but we still don't have either a cure, or a vaccine, to show for our work.

What about making oil companies drill in currently-owned leases? Well, to be blunt, not all of those leases have a whole lot of oil in them. The oil companies pick up those leases speculatively, do research and exploration to determine the most likely locations for oil, drill, and then develop the oil fields they find. Areas unlikely to contain a lot of oil are left for a later day, or better technology (we've come a long way in our ability to extract oil from "difficult" fields, but even so...) Forcing oil companies to exploit marginal areas, while other areas with greater prospects for production are prohibited for no good reason... does that sound like sound energy policy to you?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 05:04 pm
You don't really understand what a stunt is do you ADV?

First thing is attention.

Next is Mr, pay through the nose for gas, Obama.

And, just to clarify matters, there's that stuff about Dems wanting to spend more time with their wives.

That's dirty.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 05:13 pm
AA, please give us any authority you have that the 67 M acres are less likely to be productive than the areas offshore? Or is that just a convenient argument you came up with.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 05:15 pm
ADV-

A2K has about 80,000 members. The electorate is about 200 million.

Even if A2Kers are the intellectual elite, which I doubt, and thus naturally and logically believe that campaigning for offshore drilling means that offshore drilling will actually happen, as any sane person might think would happen should the campaign for offshore drilling win the day, it is the impression that is created which is of the greatest importance and not the offshore drilling or lack of it.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 05:27 pm
Here is a good piece discussing the pros and cons of offshore drilling.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2008-07-13-offshore-drilling_N.htm
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2008 06:15 pm
okie wrote:
By the way, I agree with McCain, or I am glad McCain has apparently come around to the common sense approach that I have always endorsed, which is "all of the above." Let the energy sources fight it out, let it be a healthy, all out, fair competition, and the economy will flourish. What we don't need is a bunch of do-gooders doing too much central planning and obstructing progress.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/08/05/mccain-visit-to-nuclear-power-plant-signals-all-of-the-above-approach-to-energy/


Apparently that bastion of Marxist-Liberal propaganda, the Wall Street Journal disagrees with you.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121426587652898519.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Quote:
Senator's Broad Range Of Energy Policies Defies Categories

He is for more oil drilling and also for alternatives to oil. He wants to drill off the coasts but not in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. He supports subsidies for nuclear power and clean-coal technology, but has opposed them for ethanol, solar and wind power.

He wants to lower gasoline prices by temporarily suspending the federal gas tax. But he wants to raise the price of gas with a cap-and-trade system that punishes polluting industries.

In environmentally conscious Portland, Ore., he praised wind power. In Texas oil country he supported more drilling. In rural Missouri he urged more nuclear power. In California he praised fuel-efficiency standards.

"It's all over the map," said Bob Ebel, a senior adviser and energy expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "I'm just sort of scratching my head."


Since it is obvious that you've read BOTH plans, maybe you can tell me what you like about McCain's plan as opposed to Obama's? Since you don't say WHY or go into any detail, what do you see in McCain's plan that is better than Obama's?

You MIGHT say that Obama's plan is not "detailed," but if pages count for details, Obama's beats McCain by about 3 pages.

Let me ask you this about McCain's "encouragement" of the "Market" to develop alternative sources of energy. Can you cogently explain what the heck does he mean by this?:

Quote:
To develop these and other sources of renewable energy will require that we rationalize the current patchwork of temporary tax credits that provide commercial feasibility. John McCain believes in an even-handed system of tax credits that will remain in place until the market transforms sufficiently to the point where renewable energy no longer merits the taxpayers' dollars.


McCain is a proponent of nuclear power plants and supports dumping waste at Nevada's Yucca Mountain, but he's against the idea of having the waste material driven through Arizona. (see YouTube link http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid452319854/bctid1628125789)

Obama is not specifically against the idea of nuclear power. He just more thoughtful about the consequences -- public right-to-know, security of nuclear fuel and waste, waste storage, and proliferation. He is against waste dumping at Yucca Mountain. For what it's worth, I'm not against nuclear power plants. There's NO way you can build, AND open for business, 45 power plants over 22 years. That's unrealistic. Finally, in regards to his plan for nuclear power plants? Well, he'd leave the decision up to the states on whether they want them or not.

Now, this is only a little of why I dislike McCain's plan.

Hope you'll debate this with me, by addressing some specifics of why you think McCain's plan is better for America than Obama's. Debate me on the points I've raised and sourced. Otherwise, you ought to admit that yours is a knee-jerk attitude who is only voting for McCain because he's a Republican, not because he has better ideas.

btw your comment on

Quote:
Let the energy sources fight it out, let it be a healthy, all out, fair competition, and the economy will flourish. What we don't need is a bunch of do-gooders doing too much central planning and obstructing progress.


doesn't conform to objective reality, since for nuclear plants there is unfair competition due to government support for nuclear power plant insurance.

Price-Anderson reduces the cost of nuclear power below the free market cost, which encourages its use at the expense of other forms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price-Anderson_Nuclear_Industries_Indemnity_Act
0 Replies
 
 

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