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Lies, foibles and misrepresentations of Howard Dean.

 
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 09:34 pm
Anybody catch the Presidential Candidate, Who Wants To Be A Star on "K Street" tonight?

Smarmy. Shows him actually using the line fed to him on the show, in the actual debate. All about the back room spin. Carville told him he needs to hire a guy just to make sure his collar isn't too tight. He said Dean looks like his head might burst off.
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jjorge
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 10:37 pm
Sofia,

Smarmy is in the eye of the beholder.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 10:52 pm
jjorge--

Did you catch the show?
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 11:22 pm
Why did Mary Madallin quit Cheney? Word was Carville suggested she not go down with the ship. Looks like she took him at his word.
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2003 01:04 am
I don't know. Why did Mary Madallin( sic) quite Cheney?

And who is Mary Madallin?

Can Mamajuana tell us?
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jjorge
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2003 07:37 am
jjorge*197982* wrote:



"...Dean supporters have now held over one thousand events nation-wide........."


Sorry, I really goofed on the statement about 1000 events!

.... So far Dean supporters have organized 4,085 events across the country.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 02:53 am
Re: Lies, foibles and misrepresentations of Howard Dean.
Sofia wrote:
Here, our hero states he is the only candidate, who mentions the issue of race to predominately white audiences. Talk about race baiting. Tsk tsk.

Thanks for the link, Sofia. Basically it's telling me that having made the right calls where it mattered most -- the tax cuts and the war -- Dean is now uttering some petty exaggerations about second-rate topics in his campaign soundbites. Big deal!

If stuff like this is the worst MSNBC could find, that's actually quite reassuring.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 07:41 am
I would be concerned about all the flip-flops. He either lies, or says he changed his mind about a lot of issues.

How will you know what he really plans to do?

He seems to be rewriting US policy toward Israel, the SS retirement age, and the 'reason' he opposed the war... Stay tuned for more lies, back-tracking and flip-flops... :wink:
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 08:57 am
Sofia didn't get the RNC talking points fax, apparently.

You're supposed to be thrilled about Dean's rise.

1972, McGovern, and all that.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 09:14 am
Sofia wrote:
Stay tuned for more lies, back-tracking and flip-flops... :wink:

I am, and I already got lots of these -- not from Dean, but from the guy he's running against ... you know who, but you wisely told us we're not supposed to talk about him in this thread, so I won't.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 09:35 am
PDiddie wrote:

Sofia didn't get the RNC talking points fax, apparently.

You're supposed to be thrilled about Dean's rise.

1972, McGovern, and all that.

Oh, I'm confident Sophia fully understands the implications of a Dean candidacy for the Dems and the inevitable comparisons to McGovern in 1972----I suspect Sophia merely intends to keep the record straight for those who have their heads in the sand.
I also believe Sophia will be to polite to remind you when Dean follows McGoverns ignominious example.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 09:47 am
Following your analogy all the way to the end, percy, Bush, like Nixon, will be forced to resign the Presidency in a cloud of disgrace.

Of course he could get there before November of next year, at the rate he's going.

Is there any speculation on who the Republicans might turn to should that happen? Your thoughts welcome on this scenario regardless of whether it happens pre- or post-election 2004. Cool
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 11:54 am
Following your analogy all the way to the end, percy, Bush, like Nixon, will be forced to resign the Presidency in a cloud of disgrace.

Do you have sexual fantacies also? Laughing
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 12:49 pm
All the time. How is that relevant to the topic?

(edited out the profanity)
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 12:58 pm
Oh about as relevant as your fantasy extension of my analogy.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 04:20 pm
Laughing
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 04:33 pm
That is pretty funny, isn't it?

A complete disconnect with his own logic.

Hilarious. Laughing Rolling Eyes
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 04:51 pm
perception perceptively wrote--
Quote:
Oh, I'm confident Sophia fully understands the implications of a Dean candidacy for the Dems and the inevitable comparisons to McGovern in 1972----I suspect Sophia merely intends to keep the record straight for those who have their heads in the sand.
I also believe Sophia will be to polite to remind you when Dean follows McGoverns ignominious example.


Oh, yeah. I pasted an edited view on the subject from another location, here.

It is my opinion that the Dems are setting themselves up for another national embarrassment--like the lopsided Dukakis defeat--

The Dem activists, the ones who we are hearing from on this board, and in the media, occupy the left hinterlands of the party. Certainly nothing wrong with that. But, as I've seen the media warn, and as some of us have said on the A2K forum-- these further-left Dems are pushing forward a candidate, who is at least percieved to be too left and unpalatable to the centrists who put men in the White House. One, who will wow them in the primaries, and win maybe one state in the general. McGovern and Dukakis speak clearly on the subject.

I've been thumbing through polls, and despite the unprovability of WMDs and continuing loss of life in Iraq, 63% of the public still (as of this month) support the war, and think it was the right thing to do. Insulting Bush for the war insults the majority of Americans. I can't see this tack of Dean's winning votes, other than his hard core base--who don't have the numbers to win a general election.

Additionally, this country is loathe to trust Dems--especially one, who has made major blunders in military information, such as Dean--when there are troops in the field.

I still believe until the Dems put together a cohesive identity to the voting public, they are just a minor option to the ruling party. The 2002 mid terms meant something big. The South voting out Max Cleland and putting Republicans in key governorships, one being the first since Reconstruction-- signalled a serious departure from politics as usual. Since 2002, the Dems have been an extreme underdog, in my view, and should have been very busy in self-examination, re-evaluation and change.

Some may say they have, and they decided to move left and be independant of their tendancy to 'act like Republicans', but I haven't seen anything to show a rebirth. And, the thing is--if they have decided to move left to assume a new identity, it will be a while before the masses feel safe following them. They need someone with tested military prowess, or at least demonstable knowledge of foreign affairs, and the perception that they will make the tough call, if warranted.

Closing--the centrists poll on the side of the 'war as necessity', and in Bush's war decisions, though they are concerned about the economy. They also poll as their number one priority being national security. This goes neatly into Bush's column.

Barring some unforeseen event, Bush should win handily. To me, the man has made excellent decisions, but his personality and mannerisms make him seem like a weaker candidate than he is.
-----------
I'm sure everyone will agree. Very Happy :wink:
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 06:08 pm
Joshua Marshall over at talkingpointsmemo.com sums it up for me:

Quote:
I think this has the potential to turn the primary race completely upside-down. The Dean insurgency has almost completely defined the race to this point. At present, you can't even call it an insurgency really since Dean is in fact the front-runner, by most reasonable measures. As I've written before, I think there's a niche waiting to be filled just to Dean's right. And the real mystery of the campaign so far is that none of the other contenders has managed to fill it and coalesce those who don't support Dean behind their candidacy. Kerry, Lieberman, Edwards, Gephardt ... none of them have managed it.

It's an oversimplification, of course, to frame the matter just in left-right terms. It's also a matter of tonality, the kind of campaign Dean is running, the demographic slice of the party he's appealing to, and so on. The folks whom I respect most on this question believe Dean's mix of Vermontly social liberalism and staunch opposition to the war will make it exceedingly difficult for him to appeal to the swing voters who will eventually decide the election in battleground states like Missouri, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida. But, even beyond that point, strong insurgent candidacies generally force those who oppose those insurgencies to coalesce around a single candidate. And to date that hasn't happened.

Of course, Dean's supporters have an altogether different view of the matter. They believe that he is the only candidate who can beat George W. Bush, and that it is his early opposition to the war, the defiance of his message, and his social liberalism that makes him such a strong candidate.

To them I can only say that, with sincere respect, I disagree with their judgment. Or, at least, I'm deeply skeptical.

Now, what chance does Clark have?

All my experience of conventional, real-world politics tells me that political outsiders and late-entrants end up not winning. And that experience says that Clark doesn't win. But this is already far from a normal or conventional political moment. Howard Dean's extremely impressive run to date, if nothing else, shows that. Add to that the very unsettled international scene, President Bush's wobbly approval ratings, a shaky economy, and the demonstrable inability -- as noted above -- for any of the other candidates to get any traction.

Here's what I'll be watching in the coming days:

How well does Clark do raising money? This is one of the main issues people are talking about when they say Clark is getting in too late: he's so far behind the rest in fund-raising. But I think what the Dean campaign has shown us is that the Internet has made it possible to raise a lot of money quickly -- from a vastly larger potential pool of givers than candidates have in the past -- if you catch fire.

Of course, the 'if' is the big thing. But if Clark doesn't catch fire quickly money won't matter anyway. The problem in the old days was that candidates like a Gary Hart or a John McCain could catch fire and rocket in the polls and yet just not have the time to raise the money needed to sustain that surge. Small donor fund-raising on the Internet by no mean solves that problem for Clark. But I think it at least creates a possible solution to the dilemma of surging in the polls and still not being able to raise money quickly enough to avoid getting crushed by a better financed candidate.

What sort of team does he put together?

How do his opponents come after him? Clark was not universally popular in the Army. And he rubbed some powerful people the wrong way. I have no doubt that this opponents -- both Dems and the Republicans -- will air these issues thoroughly, as is their right. How and how well does Clark respond?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2003 06:22 pm
Sofia wrote:
It is my opinion that the Dems are setting themselves up for another national embarrassment--like the lopsided Dukakis defeat--


OK, perhaps, too early to tell right now, I think - too much conflicting evidence - you might turn out to be right, in the end - might not.

In the meantime - you're not being very fair to poor Dukakis. <grins>

No, actually, I'm serious. Dukakis was hardly McGovern II.

First - as the successor of Mondale, Dukakis was both branded and perceived, way I remember it, as bringing back the Dems to a more no-nonsense, centrist, economy-focused tack after the days of Rainbow Coalitions.

Second - in historical perspective, he didnt do all that badly, election-wise - definitely not half as badly as McGovern. McGovern got 37.5% of the vote - not since 1924 had the Dems polled that badly. Dukakis, on the other hand, polled 45.7%, slashing Reagan's lead on Mondale by half (Mondale had polled a mere 40.6%).

In terms of percentage of the popular vote, Dukakis also did better than Adlai Stevenson (either time), Humphrey in '68, Carter in '80 and Clinton in '92. Admittably not a gallery of political heroes, but all in all not a ranking indicative of a singular failure of historical proportions either. Note that, in terms of popular vote percentage points, Dukakis also did better than Dewey in '48, Nixon in '68 (when he won) and Bush Sr in '92, and he polled 5% more than Bob Dole did in '96.

Still didnt win him more than the odd token state of course, but I thought some redress was only fair, here ;-).

Oh, and though I hasten to add that I consider her bold straightforwardness one of Sofia's most charming traits, I dont half believe that she "will be too polite to remind us" if Dean does follow McGoverns ignominious example, after all :wink: .
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