2
   

Fear of a Black President

 
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 12:26 pm
I'm sure the conservatives have a liberal scape goat they'll blame instead of acknowledging the flaws in their ideas.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 12:30 pm
Sorry. Brain Fart. Charlie Gibson who was one of the moderators for the ABC debate between Barack and Hlllary.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 12:43 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Sorry. Brain Fart. Charlie Gibson who was one of the moderators for the ABC debate between Barack and Hlllary.


Now the question may reasonably be asked,

Who the phuck is Charlie Gibson?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 12:52 pm
kickycan wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Taxing the income of those earning the most at 35%, and taxing others of lesser income at 15% is not giving the wealthy a tax break. It is giving the less wealthy a tax break.


Cool. That sounds great. When do we get that?

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf
2007 Tax Rate Schedule

Schedule X

Single

Taxable .......... But .......... The ............................ Of the
Income .......... Not ........... Tax ............................ Amount
Over .............. Over ......... Is .............................. Over
$0 ................... $7,625 .... ---------- 10% .................... $0
7,625 ............... 31,850 .... $782+15% .................. 7,625
31,850 ............. 77,100 .... 4,386.25+25% ........... 31,850
77,100 ........... 160,850 .... 15,698.75+28% ......... 77,100
160,850 ......... 349,200 .... 39,148.75+33% ........ 160,850
349,700 ......... ----- ......... 101,469.25+35% ........ 349,700
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 12:58 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
I'm sure the conservatives have a liberal scape goat they'll blame instead of acknowledging the flaws in their ideas.

T
K
O

That would be fair, but stupid just like the liberals. The favorite scape goat of the liberals is George Bush. But they don't stop there to avoid blame for the flaws in their ideas and how they are screwing up America.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 01:02 pm
ican, If you bother to do the math, take the average income of the lowest taxable income group, and calculate the tax. Now take the average income of the wealthiest income group, and calculate the tax. Now, here's the kicker; calculate the difference in income between the average lower income group to the higher average income group. What did you learn, if anything?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 01:10 pm
JTT wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
rabel22 wrote:
Conseratives
In reference to paying a graduated income tax being unfair than you would agree that paying less for the insurance on a bicycle but much more for a $50,000 cadillac is also unfair by the same reasoning. Right?

Gad, that's dumb!

What true conservatives actually advocate is complying with the rule of law; for example, specifically complying with the tax law specified in the USA Constitution:
"Article I. Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

The word "taxes" seems to be missing in your bolded phrase, Ican. Do you figure that that might make some difference to your "argument"?

We advocate that because we know the USA Constitution states:
"Article VI. This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."

No difference to my argument!
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=impost&x=32&y=8
Main Entry: 1im·post
Pronunciation: impst
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Medieval Latin impositum, from neuter of Latin impositus, past participle of imponere to put upon, impose -- more at IMPOSE
1 : something imposed or levied : TAX, TRIBUTE, DUTY
2 : the weight carried by a horse in a handicap race
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 01:14 pm
ican711nm wrote:

No difference to my argument!


People Banned from commenting on the Constitution and constitutional issues.

[the following list is subject to amendment at any time]

Ican
MysteryMan
Antonin Scalia
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 01:40 pm
there seems to be a great deal of reluctance to comment on the
BILL GATES SENIOR thread .
wondering why :wink: .
hbg

Quote:
Gates, whose son Bill founded Microsoft, presented graphics showing how much richer the wealthiest Americans have become over the past 25 years, while those in the lower 80 percent have not. He said the wealthiest should be carrying a bigger share of the burden of running the country and its schools. "There's no member of the family that does not agree with me on this," he said.



WARREN BUFFETT has made similar comments . anyone care to comment what a capitalist said ? Laughing

Quote:
The TimesJune 28, 2007

Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary

Tom Bawden in New York
Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner.

Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion (£26 billion), said: "The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you're in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent."

Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent. Mr Buffett told his audience, which included John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, and Alan Patricof, the founder of the US branch of Apax Partners, that US government policy had accentuated a disparity of wealth that hurt the economy by stifling opportunity and motivation.


i bet warren buffett is a really a socialist ( Shocked Crying or Very sad ) .
how could he utter such words - terrible - just terrible !
could his comments be blamed for the current problems of the american economy - HIGHER TAXES FOR THE RICH - TREASON , I SAY !
what does he know about commerce , industry , taxes and anything else .
hbg :wink:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 01:44 pm
It's very easy for those who have more money than they could ever spend in a single or several lifetimes to be magnanimous. I prefer to take counsel from somebody who actually has something to lose in these matters.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 01:45 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, If you bother to do the math, take the average income of the lowest taxable income group, and calculate the tax. Now take the average income of the wealthiest income group, and calculate the tax. Now, here's the kicker; calculate the difference in income between the average lower income group to the higher average income group. What did you learn, if anything?

From your specification I learned nothing. What did you learn?

I know already that the incomes of those with higher incomes are taxed at higher rates than those with lower incomes.

For example, from the 2007 Tax Rate Schedule X for a single person:

If one's annual taxable income were $1 million, then the tax paid would be: $101,469.75 + (1,000,000 - 349,100) x 0.35 = 101,469.75 + 227,815 =329,284.75.
100% x 329,284.75 / 1,000,000 = 32.928475%.

If one's annual taxable income were $10 thousand, then the tax paid would be: $782 + (10,000 - 7625) x .15 = 782+ 356.25 = $1,138.25.
100% x $1,138.25 / $10,000 = 11.3825%.

Clearly, the lower income folks currently get a better tax break than do the higher income folks.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 01:47 pm
You missed the last comparison.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 01:51 pm
foxfire wrote :

Quote:
It's very easy for those who have more money than they could ever spend in a single or several lifetimes to be magnanimous. I prefer to take counsel from somebody who actually has something to lose in these matters.


are you saying that gates and buffett have nothing to lose ?

are you concerned that someone wants to take your house or car away ?
i haven't really been able to ascertain "what you are personally" concerned about ?
is your main objection to higher taxes for the rich that some rich people would lose a bit or that poor people would gain a bit ?
hbg
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 01:53 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
You missed the last comparison.

I did not miss it. It looks to me like an irrelevant comparison. Please explain why you think differently (if in fact you do think differently).

By the way, in order to compute average incomes one must first know how many people have each income.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 02:04 pm
Gates and Buffet have already accumulated their wealth. Higher domestic taxes on their domestic incomes are of little consequence to their current wealth. On the otherhand, for someone working hard to accumulate more wealth, increasing marginal tax rates would be a severe handicap for them and make it even more difficult for them to compete with Gates and Buffet ..... hmmmm ...... maybe that too is what Gates and Buffet actually want!

If Gates and Buffet want to do some real good helping people achieve their goals, it would be better if more of their charitable contributions were to private K thru 12 schools to eliminate the current handicaps that too many public schools create for too many public school children.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 02:08 pm
hamburger wrote:
foxfire wrote :

Quote:
It's very easy for those who have more money than they could ever spend in a single or several lifetimes to be magnanimous. I prefer to take counsel from somebody who actually has something to lose in these matters.


are you saying that gates and buffett have nothing to lose ?

are you concerned that someone wants to take your house or car away ?
i haven't really been able to ascertain "what you are personally" concerned about ?
is your main objection to higher taxes for the rich that some rich people would lose a bit or that poor people would gain a bit ?
hbg


I am saying that somebody like Buffett or Gates are in no danger of losing or giving away anything that they might miss. Whatever their political views or social conscience, both will almost certainly have enough left to make many many of us filthy rich. Now should they give away just about EVERYTHING and reduce themselves down to a the level of income that most of us get by on, or even if they reduced their wealth to the point that higher taxes would compromise their ability to start new businesses or hire more people or give raises to their employees, etc. they might have more authority to tell the rest of us what we should do. I can also say that should they reduce their wealth to that level, they would most likely be singing a somewhat different tune.

It's sort of like I would see Al Gore as having more moral authority to tell the rest of us how to live our lives if sold his 10,000 square foot mansion and lived in a modest 2000 square foot home similar to the one I live in and if he sold his private jet and was willing to fly coach as I do and if he got rid of his big cars and chauffeured limosines and drove the same fuel efficient little hatchback that I drive.

My primary objection to higher taxes for the rich is a) the rich are already paying the huge lion's share of all taxes paid and b) any attempt to soak the rich for even more will hurt the poor.

It's as simple as that.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 02:34 pm
ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
You missed the last comparison.

I did not miss it. It looks to me like an irrelevant comparison. Please explain why you think differently (if in fact you do think differently).

By the way, in order to compute average incomes one must first know how many people have each income.



It matters not how you compute "average" income for each income range just as long as you apply it the same for both income levels.

The average tax rates for both levels of income are not consistent with the relative income levels. The lower income tax rate is approximately 13%, and the highest tax level is about 24% of income. In other words, the lower tax rate is over 50% of the wealthiest tax rate while their income represents only about 8 percent of the the wealthy people's income - before or after taxes.

If you bothered to read the post about "who benefits from taxes," it's favored towards the rich; they should also shoulder the larger share of income taxes - or all taxes. But that goes way beyond your ability to comprehend our tax/benefit system.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 03:41 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
You missed the last comparison.

I did not miss it. It looks to me like an irrelevant comparison. Please explain why you think differently (if in fact you do think differently).

By the way, in order to compute average incomes one must first know how many people have each income.



It matters not how you compute "average" income for each income range just as long as you apply it the same for both income levels.

The average tax rates for both levels of income are not consistent with the relative income levels. The lower income tax rate is approximately 13%, and the highest tax level is about 24% of income. In other words, the lower tax rate is over 50% of the wealthiest tax rate while their income represents only about 8 percent of the the wealthy people's income - before or after taxes.

If you bothered to read the post about "who benefits from taxes," it's favored towards the rich; they should also shoulder the larger share of income taxes - or all taxes. But that goes way beyond your ability to comprehend our tax/benefit system.

Thank you. I understand your point. However, I reject it because I think it irrelevant that the tax rate of the lowest group is more than 50% of the tax rate of the highest group.

I advocate the same tax rate on each and every dollar of income regardless of whose dollar it is, regardless of how many dollars income are earned by any individual, regardless of how much wealth any individual has accumulated, regardless of how much debt any individual has accumulated.

I advocate this for two reasons. The first reason is it is a violation of the "supreme law of the land" to hava any tax levy that is not uniform throughout the USA. The second reason is that allowing/requiring selected groups of people to pay different tax rates on each of their income dollars depending on their personal circumstances is an invitation to our Congress to buy votes by benefitting one group and buy campaign contributions by benefitting another group. In other words, my second reason is I want to minimize opportunity for corruption of our government.

I have not yet been able to reliably determine what is total annual USA personal income. However, until I learn otherwise, I'll assume it's 15 trillion dollars excluding all deductions and exemptions and not including any business income whatsoever. Taxes on business income amount to nothing more than hidden sales taxes so we should cancel them altogether.

Current annual federal expenditures are about 3 trillion. So with a 3 trillion annual federal expenditure, and a 15 trillion total annual personal income, the uniform tax rate would come to 100% x 3 / 15 = 20%. But it doesn't require a genius to figure out that at least half of federal expenditures are federal grants and other forms of federal charities not authorized by our Constitution. If they were to be discontinued, the uniform tax rate could safely be reduced to 10%.

To really help the poor's children, give them an education not corrupted by our Congress. In other words, to help those who have achieved less to achieve more, force our federal government to obey the 10th Amendment to our USA Constitution:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 03:50 pm
Your "advocacy" means nothing to those youngsters being made liable for the overspending of the current governments creation of huge deficits that must be paid when they become wage earners - while those same wealthy income earners gain the most benefits from current taxes.

Many simple concepts have been lost to conservatives who can only parrot the party line of "why must taxpayer A pay more taxes to transfer wealth to taxpayer b."

Most of you have lost your ability to think for yourself, and learn the facts before you get brainwashed with garbage.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jul, 2008 05:43 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Your "advocacy" means nothing to those youngsters being made liable for the overspending of the current governments creation of huge deficits that must be paid when they become wage earners - while those same wealthy income earners gain the most benefits from current taxes.

Many simple concepts have been lost to conservatives who can only parrot the party line of "why must taxpayer A pay more taxes to transfer wealth to taxpayer b."

Most of you have lost your ability to think for yourself, and learn the facts before you get brainwashed with garbage.

Here in this one post you are obviously accurately charactizing ICLs (i.e., Invidious Collectivist Liberals) in their most obvious follies. In particular "those youngsters being made liable for the overspending of the current governments creation of huge deficits that must be paid when they become wage earners" are past, current, and future victims of past and present ICL's spending dogma. Most of these ICLs control the Democratic Party. Each day, more of them are also Moving.ON to control the Republican Party.

Another obvious characteristic of ICLs is their propensity to accuse their opponents of what they themselves have actually done, are doing, and intend to do.

It would be a joke except for the huge damage to our country ICLs have, are, and will perpetrate.
0 Replies
 
 

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