THE GENERAL ELECTION 2008

What you mean is, Republicans wish to prove him an illusion, but are afraid that they will not be able to do so.

Cycloptichorn

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I doubt very seriously that it was a Republican who wrote the NY Times piece.

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So do I (though actually, there are plenty of Conservatives who write for the Times - Kristol and Brooks come to mind). But, what I said was, you wish to prove him an illusion, but are afraid that you will be unable to do so. The fact that you have used a piece written by someone at the NYT is not material to my statement.

Cycloptichorn

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Yes, politics is about packaging and communication as well as substance.

What you quote is Axelrod figuring out how to best convey the actual substance, though. (Re: short white farmer -- I'm happy to find and post a long New Yorker article from 2004 I believe about Obama's amazing success in connecting with Illinois farmers. Re: prior political experience -- Hilzoy has a very very long and very thorough run-down of some [not all] of what Obama has done in his political career. Also happy to post that. Re-post actually -- I've posted before more than once.)

One thing I really like about Obama is that twofer -- style AND substance.

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Here's a Hilzoy piece, though I'm not sure if it's the one I have in mind, and only goes up until 2006:

http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2006/10/barack_obama.html

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sozobe wrote:

Yes, politics is about packaging and communication as well as substance.

What you quote is Axelrod figuring out how to best convey the actual substance, though. (Re: short white farmer -- I'm happy to find and post a long New Yorker article from 2004 I believe about Obama's amazing success in connecting with Illinois farmers. Re: prior political experience -- Hilzoy has a very very long and very thorough run-down of some [not all] of what Obama has done in his political career. Also happy to post that. Re-post actually -- I've posted before more than once.)

One thing I really like about Obama is that twofer -- style AND substance.

As the odds currently favor Obama being our next President, I sincerely hope that Obama brings good substance, Soz. Even though you and I are pretty far apart in our ideological political perspectives, I can see how Obama probably won't 'wreck the country' as some ideologues predict and I would hope that you would understand that a John McCain won't wreck the country either despite him probably holding more conservative views than you would prefer.

The point I think is being made re substance though, is that if Obama did run a traditional campaign that spotlighted the substance or what he actually wants to do, he would lose. I can't say whether that is right or not. It does reinforce the impression at least some of us have that Obama is far more a messianic rock star figure with a 'wow factor' and is winning that way rather than on the honest merits of what he might actually get done.

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I respectfully disagree, fox.

The war in Iraq is a major difference between the two. As are health care and the potential of who would be nominated to be the next USSCJs. I don't think Obama will lose vs McCain against any of these issues.

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JPB wrote:

I respectfully disagree, fox.

The war in Iraq is a major difference between the two. As are health care and the potential of who would be nominated to be the next USSCJs. I don't think Obama will lose vs McCain against any of these issues.

Maybe. We won't know until we start comparing the game plans side by side and I am not convinced that the Obama camp will allow that to happen. So far Obama hasn't responded to McCains suggestion of weekly town hall meetings so people can hear both candidates speak on the issues in an unfiltered format.

On National Defense, Iraq, the economy, and the courts, I think McCain has the edge. I think Obama's healthcare plan, naive approach to taxes, and obvious inexperience on international relations can be used to diminish his appeal. On the environment, immigration, Guatanamo, and various social issues, there isn't enough difference between the two to matter much.

Obama has nothing to gain and everything to lose by going toe to toe with McCain and exposing weaknesses. His best bet is to be the young, good looking, personable one who says 'change' a lot and keep emphasizing that McCain is old.

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Quote:

Maybe. We won't know until we start comparing the game plans side by side and I am not convinced that the Obama camp will allow that to happen. So far Obama hasn't responded to McCains suggestion of weekly town hall meetings so people can hear both candidates speak on the issues in an unfiltered format.

Those 'weekly town hall meetings' are designed to trap Obama. They put McCain in his best possible light (off the cuff speaking) and Obama in his worse. They provide free advertising for McCain, who needs it. The open nature of what McCain proposes makes it extremely difficult to pin McCain's lies down; he can dodge and spin away, and if the other guy attacks too much, it looks bad.

Obama might do a couple, but this 'weekly' nonsense is ridiculous. It's the same as when Hillary was proposing weekly debates; the weaker candidate trying to hobble the stronger one.

Cycloptichorn

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If he is the stronger one, then why would he be hobbled? I agree that Obama doesn't work well without a script and McCain, though he can also stumble over words, does know his stuff which Obama frequently doesn't.

And again you have emphasized why Axelrod is so careful to keep Obama in the rockstar spotlight and away from any situation that might diminish that image.

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Foxfyre wrote:

If he is the stronger one, then why would he be hobbled? I agree that Obama doesn't work well without a script and McCain, though he can also stumble over words, does know his stuff which Obama frequently doesn't.

And again you have emphasized why Axelrod is so careful to keep Obama in the rockstar spotlight and away from any situation that might diminish that image.

Pff, I don't agree with your assessment in the slightest. Obama knows 'his stuff' better then McCain EVER will. It isn't about who is knowledgeable on the issues, it's about what presentation suits one's candidate best. McCain's folks feel that the 'town hall' format is the best presentation for McCain, so they want to try and force Obama into adopting that format. Obama's camp has proposed actual L-D debates, with structure and cross-examination. Obama will absolutely murder McCain in such a format. So they will try and get McCain to do that, which of course the chicken won't agree to.

You are confusing positioning and strategy for something else... both sides are merely jockeying for what they feel presents their guy best. Luckily for Obama, he's got the upper hand in this fight, as the majority of Americans happen to agree with his positions on several issues, and disagree with McCain's.

Cycloptichorn

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Well if Obama 'knows his stuff' he shouldn't be afraid of showing it up front and extemporaneously, should me?

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Foxfyre wrote:

Well if Obama 'knows his stuff' he shouldn't be afraid of showing it up front and extemporaneously, should me?

I don't think that's what he fears, at all. I just think that he's smart enough to know what McCain needs - and that's two things: first, situations in which he cannot effectively be called on his mis-statements and lies, and second, free advertising. It would be foolish to provide him with either.

Cycloptichorn

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Your non sequiturs are so predictable Cyclop. I won't ask you to even explain that bit of nonsense as it is also predictable that you won't be able to do so.

Meanwhile:

Quote:

RASMUSSEN

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From above quote:

Quote:

Forty-four percent (44%) of voters believe that Barack Obama would emerge as the winner of the debates while 28% say that John McCain would be the winner. Twenty-seven percent (27%) are not sure.

Since wrapping up the Democratic Presidential Nomination, Obama has enjoyed a nice bounce in the polls to give him a lead nationally in the Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll.

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Shrug. McCain lies constantly. Much of the time, he can't remember what he's said in the past, and claims he hasn't said things that he did in fact say. Here's an example from just today:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0608/McCain_DID_deliver_line_tweaking_press.html

Cycloptichorn

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

From above quote:

Quote:
Forty-four percent (44%) of voters believe that Barack Obama would emerge as the winner of the debates while 28% say that John McCain would be the winner. Twenty-seven percent (27%) are not sure.

Since wrapping up the Democratic Presidential Nomination, Obama has enjoyed a nice bounce in the polls to give him a lead nationally in the Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll.

So it would seem that Cyclop is in a minority in thinking his candidate isn't capable of holding his own in a Town Hall format.

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You twist my words; never did I say that Obama wasn't capable of 'holding his own.' I think that he could beat the pants off of Grandpa John in ANY format. But I think certain formats provide free advertising to McCain, and play to his strengths, more then others; and I do not support Obama agreeing to these formats.

Cycloptichorn

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Which my dear Cyclop is the same thing as saying that Obama cannot work well without a net, speak well without a script, and having to support his ideas or know something without the text in front of him is not one of his strengths.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Which my dear Cyclop is the same thing as saying that Obama cannot work well without a net, speak well without a script, and having to support his ideas or know something without the text in front of him is not one of his strengths.

No, it is not the same thing at all. That's your Republican wish. The truth is that in an off-the-cuff situation, Obama would still beat the pants off of Grandpa John. But, Grandpa embarrasses himself in planned and prepped speeches, like last Tues.; so simple strategy would say that forcing him to give as many of those as possible, while limiting situations where McCain does better, is the right way to go.

I have no idea why we are having this conversation...

Cycloptichorn

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THE GENERAL ELECTION 2008

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