THE GENERAL ELECTION 2008

ah perfect

I was just about to drop this off here

Quote:

Flip-flopping to the White House

How Barack Obama and John McCain are changing positions on everything from wiretapping to taxes.

current headline somewhere at Salon and a variant of headlines on a range of other sites (right/left/somewhat central) - they're all noticing

Quote:

In some cases -- foremost with warrantless wiretapping, where Obama went back on a pledge to filibuster the bill he wound up voting for -- the charges against Obama may be deserved. On others, like Iraq -- where Obama has said all along he'd seek guidance from the Pentagon on how best to withdraw U.S. troops within 16 months -- the shift is more in how he's talking about the issue, not what his essential policy is.

McCain, though, is a surprising choice to be a charter member of the U.S. Consistency Patrol. He's done his fair share of "reversals," as the Republicans call Obama's shifts, in this campaign. He changed his position on offshore oil drilling (from opposed to in favor), on sweeping immigration reform (from in favor to opposed), and on tax cuts (from opposed to in favor). Democrats are trying to spotlight that track record, themselves; the goal is to chip away at McCain's image as a maverick -- to remind voters that in fact, he agrees with his fellow Republicans far more than he disagrees. For someone who named his campaign bus the "Straight Talk Express," the moves add up to a potential vulnerability.

This summer's focus on flip-flops has managed to obscure meaningful discussion of policies. The campaigns and the media alike are rolling up procedural issues (Obama's decision not to take public financing for the general election) with substantive ones (McCain's decision that tax cuts he once said he "could not in good conscience" vote for weren't so bad after all) into one big, catch-all category. Aides on both sides sound eerily similar.

"They've all been for the sake of political expedience," RNC spokesman Alex Conant said about Obama's policy shifts.

"We've seen a very clear pattern now of him putting political calculations first," the Democratic National Committee's Damien LaVera said of McCain. On Tuesday night, the campaigns even issued dueling memos on the subject.

nothing new in Mudville

this might be the Salon link. Not sure. I'm not a Salon person.

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I don't trust Salon at all to represent any Republican or conservative fairly, though on some occasions one of their featured writers actually does. It's sort of comparable to conservatives using TownHall as a reliable source to skewer a liberal or Democrat. Personally I think TownHall is more honest than Salon, but I fully understand that those on the Left will strenuously object to that point of view.

I don't think there is a single McCain supporter that hasn't acknowledged those things on which he is being accused of flipflopping and we have criticized him for that kind of thing quite a lot. We don't WANT him to be just another pandering politician.

Some of the stuff is hard to make into true flipflops though when there is a lot of distance between an earlier stance on something and his current one. How many of us hold the same convictions that we held 20-30 years ago about everything we've ever believed?

The big difference I see between McCain and Obama on flipflopping is that McCain admits he has changed positions when a flipflop is pointed out to him. And he will explain why he changed his vote or mind or whatever. On occasion, he is the one to bring it up--on immigration for instance.

I have yet to hear Obama admit he has changed his point of view about anything. There's a lot of 'what I really meant was' or 'what I intended to say was', but never an honest statement that "I was wrong about that or I have changed my mind about that and here's why. . . ." Once in awhile that is valid. But how many times can you say, "What I really was saying was. . ." until it is seen as something other than honest or truthful?

The most damning clips on that mini-documentary are those in which he states, dead pan, that he never has said...whatever....when the clip(s) preceding it clearly show that he did.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Personally I think TownHall is more honest than Salon, but I fully understand that those on the Left will strenuously object to that point of view.

I was happy to wander over to Townhall to see what was on offer

link

Quote:

it goes without saying that Sen. John McCain has made his own contributions to the Museum of Advanced Flip-floppery

As I noted in my earlier post about the flippity floppity - sites on all sides of this are commenting on both major candidates' fine work. Salon was one example, Townhall's another ... it's all over the place. Neither McCain nor Obama's getting a pass on their fine efforts to reposition (google either of their names + reposition and have a lot of fun reading)

Mebbe it's a sign that media's starting to get embarrassed at getting caught on stuff they've missed/passed on (it's a definite upside to bloggers/youtube etc - it's all out there) and is going to make an effort to really show interested voters what their choices are.

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If McCain agreeing with George Bush = McSame... does Obama agreeing with McCain = Osame?

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-centrists13-2008jul13,0,7130991.story

Since the two now seem to agree on so many issues, wouldnt an Obama win also be another Bush term?
After all, thats what the left is calling a McCain win.

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This is interesting.
Apparently Obama edits the official transcripts of speeches to remove something he wishes he hadnt said...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=69784

And if all you want to do is complain about the source, dont bother.

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mysteryman wrote:

This is interesting.
Apparently Obama edits the official transcripts of speeches to remove something he wishes he hadnt said...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=69784

And if all you want to do is complain about the source, dont bother.

Yup. The transcript Obama released to the WSJ and NYT says this:

Quote:

We'll send more college graduates to teach and mentor our young people. We'll call on Americans to join an Energy Corps to conduct renewable energy and environmental cleanup projects in their neighborhoods. We'll enlist veterans to help other vets find jobs and support, and to be there for our military families. And we'll also grow our Foreign Service, open consulates that have been shuttered, and double the size of the Peace Corps by 2011 to renew our diplomacy

But the YouTube clip--these numbnuts who think they can play the American people for idiots can't get away from YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df2p6867_pw

Shows that Obama also said this about 16 minutes into the speech--an incredible statement that was deleted from the paragraph above:

Quote:

"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

So far he is ducking the honest reporters who are attempting to pin him down on the deception, but if one does, I would give pretty strong odds that he will say, "What I was actually saying was. . . . ." and the media will accept that without challenge.

Early on in the debate....on the Obama thread and elsewhere....I posted more than once that I saw Obama as a good, honest, and forthright person if too naive and too liberal for my tastes. But as the deliberate denials, equivocations, misstatements, restatements, reversals, and ducks and weaves are becoming legion, the more I believe that he is neither naive nor honest. At the very best, he has been so inconsistent and not forthcoming so many times now, I think we can safely say we have no clue what this man really thinks, really believes, or how he might govern.

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Quote:

Some of the stuff is hard to make into true flipflops though when there is a lot of distance between an earlier stance on something and his current one. How many of us hold the same convictions that we held 20-30 years ago about everything we've ever believed?

The big difference I see between McCain and Obama on flipflopping is that McCain admits he has changed positions when a flipflop is pointed out to him. And he will explain why he changed his vote or mind or whatever. On occasion, he is the one to bring it up--on immigration for instance.

Too funny that you wrote this yesterday.

During an interview yesterday, in which he called Obama a 'socialist' and an 'extremist,' McCain said:

Quote:

Q: But you flip-flop a little bit too.

McCain: No, I didn't.

Q: You flip-flop on drilling, on tax cuts

McCain: Actually, I didn't. Actually, on the drilling issue, when gasoline reached $4 a gallon, we've got to do things that we otherwise haven't done in the past. I have not changed my mind on any other issue. On immigration, I said we need comprehensive immigration reform, it failed twice, so we've got to do what's going to succeed.

Q: But you were against the tax cuts, now you're talking about making them permanent. Isn't there flip-flopping on both sides?

McCain: Actually, no.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/16237.html

Fox: you've failed. McCain claims that other then drilling, he has not changed his mind on any issue and he doesn't flip flop; when it is clear that this is exactly what he has done on several issues.

McCain is losing what little respect he had left, what with his incredible hackery and penchant for making **** up. He just makes up stuff. He lies about his past record every single time he gives a speech. He claims that he can't be held responsible for horrible comments he's made in the past, but seeks to make hay out of every little comment Obama makes. It's pathetic, really.

On the 'transcript' issue, you morons are confusing prepared remarks, made before a speech is actually given, with the speech itself. They never match. And Fox, Worldnetdaily is a heavily Republican website, and you shouldn't be accepting them as a source, for they don't even pretend to be neutral.

Even in the WND article, it says:

Quote:

The lines are not included in a transcript of the prepared remarks published by the Denver Post and Wall Street Journal.

He isn't editing the transcripts, he added that line in to the prepared remarks, you incredible imbeciles. Accusing him of duplicity for adding a line in to his speech that wasn't in the prepared remarks? Could you two look any dumber? Laughing

I think both of you know in your heart that McCain and the Republicans are in big trouble this Fall. And it's worrisome, so you are flailing about for whatever you can find, and still coming up empty...

Cycloptichorn

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That dog won't hunt, Cyclop. A transcript is a transcript, not a copy of written speech provided to the press in advance. Obama isn't quick enough on his feet to have added the deleted phrase as an afterthought anyway. And it isn't something that he would come up with out of thin air. This is an intended deception to avoid political dynamite pure and simple.

Meanwhile. . . .
As for ehBeth's post re McCain's flipflops alongside Obama's flipflops, those are out there for all to see, and it is quite believable that TownHall, in its editorial policy, would point them out. TownHall's editorial stance is Conservative and McCain's liberal side has irritated them as much as it has irritated the rest of us.

Some of McCain's flipflops are good flip flops like agreeing to keep the Bush tax cuts--he voted against those because the bill made no effort to curb irresponsible spending but the tax cuts themselves he recognizes have had the positive effect on the whole economy that they were intended to do. He hasn't relented one bit on the need to stop irreponsible spending, however.

Another good illustration is immigration where McCain admits he is bowing to the will of the people on securing the borders first before establishing policy/new law on how to deal with those illegals already here. He admits that his policy will need to include a way to not increase the problem as Reagan's immigration reform in the 1980's did and which the plan McCain's originally supported could also have done.

McCain has not agreed to being as hard nosed as some of us would prefer that he be re illegal immigration and he continues to make the case for a sensible but humane solution and provides eloquent arguments for that point of view. Even though I think that will likely lead to a softer policy that I think advisable, I can't fault him on his point of view because he is mostly right.

Again the main difference between McCain and Obama on flipflops is that McCain admits his and readily furnishes a rationale for why he has changed his stance or point of view. Obama won't admit that he flipflops.

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Foxfyre wrote:

That dog won't hunt, Cyclop. A transcript is a transcript, not a copy of written speech provided to the press in advance. Obama isn't quick enough on his feet to have added the deleted phrase as an afterthought anyway. And it isn't something that he would come up with out of thin air. This is an intended deception to avoid political dynamite pure and simple.

Bull. Obama most certainly IS quick enough on his feet; and what the papers had was not a transcript, but prepared remarks, do you even understand what that means?

From the WND article:

Quote:

Democrat Sen. Barack Obama's stunning assertion in a recent speech that the U.S. needs a "civilian national security force" that would be as powerful, strong and well-funded as the half-trillion dollar Army, Marines, Navy and Air Force is not included in published transcripts of his prepared remarks.

The article CLEARLY IDENTIFIES the materials as 'prepared remarks,' NOT a transcript provided after the speech.

You are digging yourself deeper here, and really should quit while you are only somewhat behind.

The rest of your post is worse.

Quote:

Some of McCain's flipflops are good flip flops like agreeing to keep the Bush tax cuts--he voted against those because the bill made no effort to curb irresponsible spending but the tax cuts themselves he recognizes have had the positive effect on the whole economy that they were intended to do. He hasn't relented one bit on the need to stop irreponsible spending, however.

...

Again the main difference between McCain and Obama on flipflops is that McCain admits his and readily furnishes a rationale for why he has changed his stance or point of view. Obama won't admit that he flipflops.

McCain specifically denies his flip flops. You are lying, Fox, you are flat out lying. Making stuff up, just as he does.

From yesterday's interview, which I posted above,

Quote:

Q: But you flip-flop a little bit too.

McCain: No, I didn't.

Q: You flip-flop on drilling, on tax cuts

McCain: Actually, I didn't. Actually, on the drilling issue, when gasoline reached $4 a gallon, we've got to do things that we otherwise haven't done in the past. I have not changed my mind on any other issue. On immigration, I said we need comprehensive immigration reform, it failed twice, so we've got to do what's going to succeed.

Q: But you were against the tax cuts, now you're talking about making them permanent. Isn't there flip-flopping on both sides?

McCain: Actually, no.

McCain doesn't 'admit' his flip-flops; he specifically DENIES them. He goes so far as to say:

Quote:

McCain: Actually, I didn't. Actually, on the drilling issue, when gasoline reached $4 a gallon, we've got to do things that we otherwise haven't done in the past. I have not changed my mind on any other issue.

Both you and he are complete and shameless liars; he lies about his flip-flops, you lie about his willingness to admit them. Both of you are pathetic, because it is so damn easy to disprove your lies, it doesn't even take a single minute to do it.

Cycloptichorn

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Actually he didn't what? Without a source--a source other than daily KOS or some other highly biased site--how do we know what the context of the conversation was? I have been following McCain for decades now and have had HUGE problems with him on various things. Except on very rare occasions, his being intentionally deceptive or dishonest was not one of them.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Actually he didn't what? Without a source--a source other than daily KOS or some other highly biased site--how do we know what the context of the conversation was? I have been following McCain for decades now and have had HUGE problems with some of his positions on things. Except on vary rare occasions, his being intentionally deceptive or dishonest was not one of them.

You know those blue things, that underline sometimes? Links? If you follow them, you find out more information. You should try it before making yourself look so foolish.

Here, if you had clicked on the link I posted, you would see that it links to this:

http://videos.kansascity.com/vmix_hosted_apps/p/media?id=2006202

Where you can watch him lie for yourself.

He lies about his record every time he speaks; and he clearly denies having changed his mind on issues, or flip-flopping. You were clearly completely wrong. I included the context in the text box, but why don't you watch for yourself and see, so that you can't bleat about 'libuwwal websites!'

I'm glad to see you dropped the asinine 'prepared remarks' argument, as it really was foolish.

Cycloptichorn

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You know Cyclo if you would post here without the little and sometimes large digs at peoples intellect you might be more effective in your arguments. As it is you usually come off as an self important as-.

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rabel22 wrote:

You know Cyclo if you would post here without the little and sometimes large digs at peoples intellect you might be more effective in your arguments. As it is you usually come off as an self important as-.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

I call them as I see them.

Cycloptichorn

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All that clip accomplished was to make me much more comfortable in my support of McCain. He is reasoned, disciplined, and makes a lot of sense when he explains his rationale.

The 'flip flop' on offshore drilling under question is not a flipflop at all. McCain supported the moratorium in 1999 when gas was $1.13/gallon and the bill was attached to a bunch of other stuff. Now with gas at $4/gallon he advocates rescinding the moratorium. As I stated in an earlier post, when there is so much distance between one action and the next one when circumstances are much different, it is difficult to call a change of point of view as a flip flop.

Has he done a flipflop on immigration? Only in the sense that he now agrees that the first priority is securing the borders before other policy is decided--that didn't exist in the original plan--and he acknowledges that care must be taken to not exacerbate the problem, a concern he did not express before. He has expressly stated that this change of focus was in response to the demands of the American people. He hasn't changed his overall point of view about immigration, however, and knows that he risks political liability by sticking to his guns.

Does he deny any flipflopping whatsoever in that clip? In his mind I think he probably thinks that an unfair characterization and within a brief extemporaneous comment expressed within a single second it is an unfair characterization.

And your arguments are becoming more and more irrational, shrill, stretched, ad hominem, and desperate, Cyclops with no attempt to be fair or even intelligent. I believe that reinforces my point of view on this and, if you continue in the insulting manner that you have conducted this discussion in the last several posts, I will not respond to you further on this subject.

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Fox, so when he says 'I haven't changed my mind on any other issue,' and 'all the flip-flops are on the other side of the isle, none over here,' you claim that he is not denying flip-flopping? Seriously? He says he hasn't even changed his position, and we ALL know that's false! He clearly was, as is his usual, lying.

Are you specifically contending that when he says "I have not changed my mind on any other issue," that he was telling the truth? He obviously was not!

Are you prepared to retract this comment:

Quote:

Again the main difference between McCain and Obama on flipflops is that McCain admits his and readily furnishes a rationale for why he has changed his stance or point of view. Obama won't admit that he flipflops.

... now that it has become incredibly clear that McCain does NOT admit his flipflops, and that what you criticize Obama for, is exactly what McCain was directly quoted as saying yesterday?

These arguments you are making, I've never seen such spin, even from you... how can you call my arguments 'stretched?' I'm using direct quotes of McCain's, and yours, containing the exact language in question, in which he directly contradicts the position you said he took. That's not a stretched argument, it's a factual one, with quotes, with video of him rejecting your assertion, with logical support. You, on the other hand, have presented spin and opinion; no facts, no links, no quotes, nothing, just your opinion, and a direct denial of plain facts and language.

Cycloptichorn

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He didn't say that he hasn't changed his mind on any other issue. He was speaking extemporaneously related to a couple of specific things the interviewer brought up, and only those highly prejudiced against McCain would extrapolate his remark to mean anything he has ever said about anything. Speaking of 'spin', you have tried to spin almost everything Obama has ever said into something positive and have consistently mostly denied that he has ever said anything dumb or objectionable. I have not said that about McCain and I'm not saying that now. I am saying that based on a single extemporaneous line that could have meant any number of things, you cannot fairly damn him.

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If you look carefully you will see that both presidential organizations spin like tops and both have been flip flopping from the start of the campagins. The important thing to both of them is to gather enough votes to get elected so they can tell the voters screw you I am elected now and Ill do whatever I want. Its what bush did and I see not much difference betweem these two and bush. All politicians lie through their teeth. Whats that old joke about how can you tell when a politician is liang his mouth is moving.

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Extemperaneous, my ass. You wish to hang Obama over every line he makes, ever, but wish to give McCain a pass on a very clear statment of his.

I'll reprint it here:

Quote:

Q: You flip-flop on drilling, on tax cuts

McCain: Actually, I didn't. Actually, on the drilling issue, when gasoline reached $4 a gallon, we've got to do things that we otherwise haven't done in the past. I have not changed my mind on any other issue. On immigration, I said we need comprehensive immigration reform, it failed twice, so we've got to do what's going to succeed.

First of all, he flip-flopped on tax cuts, completely. You know he did, Fox. There's no argument that he did. But he denies he did. And he specifically and clearly says, in the context of flip-flops, that he has not 'changed his mind on any other issue.'

You could not possibly get a more clear context, and who gives a damn if it is extemporaneous? You and other Republicans have been saying for months that this is McCain's best format, and that he does the worst in set speeches. When are you going to show even the slightest bit of balance, and admit that McCain has flip-flopped on MANY issues, and what more, he lies about it!

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Extemperaneous, my ass. You wish to hang Obama over every line he makes, ever, but wish to give McCain a pass on a very clear statment of his.

I'll reprint it here:

Quote:

Q: You flip-flop on drilling, on tax cuts

McCain: Actually, I didn't. Actually, on the drilling issue, when gasoline reached $4 a gallon, we've got to do things that we otherwise haven't done in the past. I have not changed my mind on any other issue. On immigration, I said we need comprehensive immigration reform, it failed twice, so we've got to do what's going to succeed.

First of all, he flip-flopped on tax cuts, completely. You know he did, Fox. There's no argument that he did. But he denies he did. And he specifically and clearly says, in the context of flip-flops, that he has not 'changed his mind on any other issue.'

You could not possibly get a more clear context, and who gives a damn if it is extemporaneous? You and other Republicans have been saying for months that this is McCain's best format, and that he does the worst in set speeches. When are you going to show even the slightest bit of balance, and admit that McCain has flip-flopped on MANY issues, and what more, he lies about it!

Cycloptichorn

As soon as you admit that Obama has flip-flopped on many issues, I will be glad to admit that McCain has also.

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From what I have seen, the Rightwingers/GOPers on this board have ALL admitted and/or even volunteered that McCain has flipflopped. We have been highly mocked for not supporting our candidate on whatever. I will not say that McCain lied on that Kansas City clip because there is no evidence that he did unless highly partisan meanspirited interpretation is attached to it.

Has Mccain ever lied? Probably. But that is not a dominant trait. Has he been wrong? Absolutely. Does he admit it? Not when he doesn't believe he was.

Has President Bush been wrong? Absolutely. Incompetent? Absolutely. Does he admit it? Not when he doesn't believe he was. Does he lie? There has been one or two incidents that raised my eyebrows, but overall I think that no, he does not. Lying is not one of his dominant traits.

Neither he nor McCain would ever look directly into a camera and state emphatically what they knew was a bald faced lie to the American public.

Has Obama been wrong? Absolutely. Incompetent? Absolutely. Does he admit it? He hasn't yet and he's too much all over the block to know what he believes about much of anything. Does he lie? He certainly says two different things, sometimes to two different audiences on the same day, but I don't know whether he is intentionally lying. I honestly think he is so clueless about many of the issues he speaks about, he doesn't know what he is saying and forgets from one script to the next.

What is my sense of Obama at this time? It is a growing uneasiness that he is dumb like a fox, that he is intentionally deceiving the American people as to his true beliefs and convictions.

Can I prove that? No I cannot.

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THE GENERAL ELECTION 2008

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