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Is it time for Obama to choose a running mate?

 
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 09:03 am
because I don't think either man is qualified.... for different reasons... I'm not going to discuss them because there's no point...A2K has become by and large O2K so what's the point?

I dj at a black club around here where not surprisingly they support Obama. The staff, owners and some of the regulars know I'm a Hillary supporter and we have talked about why. We disagree. Tuesday night, out of courtesy, I congratulated Obama for securing the nominatioin and the crowd applauded, but no piling on, no I told you sos, no snarkiness towards Hillary or me. For that, I had to come here.

So suffice it to say I don't think either guy can do the job.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 09:05 am
candidone1 wrote:
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Better for Hillary, if she is truly only interested in what's best for her... to stand away from the carnage, watch one of these two get elected and f*ck the country up even more than it already is (if that's possible) and plan for 2012.


Man, your bitterness has reached not only the status of intolerable, but also delusional.
You are now drawing the irrational conclusion that Obama could/will likely f*ck the country up even more than it already is.

Get a grip man.

Seriously.

Equating Obama to Bush is not only irrational and silly, but believing that Hillary was the Messiah Who Has Come To Save America is precisely what you have criticized Obama supporters of believing.


note my civil response to onxyelle candidone... as for you, enjoy your moment in the sun. I don't think Hillary is anything but the more qualified to be president among the three. Prove I ever said otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 09:09 am
nimh wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I suspect the Veep's values are far less important to Obama than the votes the Veep can pull in that Obama might otherwise miss.

I dunno. I mean, this is just speculation, but I get the feeling that his biggest priority is to get a Veep who will fit in with the campaign he's run. The one thing his campaign has stood out for, especially compared with the ongoing psychodramas of Hillaryland and the volatile fortunes of McCain's campaign (from frontrunner to bankrupt back to frontrunner again) is how steady, consistent and disciplined it's been. That's the one thing that's impressed me most, anyhow, that's won me over even when I had my doubts both about the focus of his message and the limits of his demographic appeal.

This is one lean, mean, disciplined campaign, always on message, never word leaking out of internal rivalries, divisions, camps fighting each other. There's this consistent focus on planning things way in advance and keeping the course even in the face of media hypes that would tempt other campaigns into impulsive, ad hoc changes of strategy or message. He's adjusted his appeal over time, but gradually, and basically they've just been plugging away at their plan. The various reporting on his campaign suggests that this is their overriding priority too: no drama.

I think that, more than anything else, would be a dealbreaker in selecting any Veep candidate, and I am guessing (and hoping) it would certainly be a dealbreaker when it comes to having Hillary as Veep candidate. Importing Hillaryland would at once undo their whole m.o.


I agree that Obama had the best managed and disciplined campaign in this election, but evenso Obama was not able to close the deal without significant arm twisting of super delegates by the DNC chairman. And he is no lock for the general election either. I can't imagine that they will now lose focus and not choose a running mate who can deliver significant votes that were previously out of reach for Obama. I can't imagine that won't be their most important criteria in choosing that running mate.

Of course that means a running mate who won't run counter to Obama's message, whatever it is so I can agree in part with your point of view too. I do think, however, that they would pick a Druid whose only interest was in butterflies if that person could help deliver a win in November.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 09:20 am
tell you what candidone... against my better judgement... I think John McCain will f*ck thing up by continuing on the present path..... I think Obama will f*ck things up by not having the ability to rein things in and they will just run even wilder and more out of control.... that's not to say his intentions won't be good or that he's a bad man... just that I don't think he can do the job.... as I've said so many times ad nauseum I've lost count...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 09:44 am
This piece provides some good insights into the process of Veep selection:

The Running Mate Dilemma
A Commentary By Joe Conason
Thursday, June 05, 2008
The selection of a vice president is not only an exercise in political handicapping but also a national rite of statecraft. Candidates, advisers, pundits and assorted experts try to calculate the ethnic, geographic, gender and ideological characteristics of potential running mates, but what this choice actually reveals is the character of a presidential nominee.

For Barack Obama, the choice of a vice president is a test of his self-confidence and his vaunted judgment. Should he seek to mollify the disappointed Clinton supporters, especially among his party's women? Or should he try to balance his own political weaknesses with somebody else's strengths? Will he attempt to win a region with his choice, or even one crucial state?

For John McCain, this decision will reflect the character issue that is now at the center of his campaign. Should he try to motivate the sullen base of the Republican Party by picking a right-wing hard-liner? Or should he renew his appeal to independents and even Democrats with a fresh-faced reformer? Can he strike deep into the opposition by choosing a female or minority candidate (or both)?

For either candidate, the selection process may be complicated by extraneous considerations. Suffering under a financial disadvantage, for example, the Republican campaign could be tempted by the likes of Mitt Romney, whose willingness to spend his own millions on negative ads certainly impressed McCain during the primaries. It is hard to imagine any other reason why the straight talker would tap a politician he so ardently despises.

Meanwhile certain leaders of the religious right are openly promoting the candidacy of Mike Huckabee, the former Arkansas governor and extinguished fad of the early primaries. Personable as he is, Huck nevertheless emphasizes the Republican extremism that is now out of favor with most American voters. He also talks too much and says stupid things about shooting people.

So perhaps McCain, who will turn 72 just before his party's convention and looks even older, would do better with a young conservative governor like Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota or Bobby Jindal of Louisiana. The only problem with the youth gambit is that a political newcomer on the ticket would undermine his most compelling argument against Obama.

But if McCain confronts quandaries, those faced by his rival are just as difficult. First, Obama must engage in a complex and challenging dance with Hillary Clinton, according her appropriate respect without allowing her to dominate the process. Current polling data indicates that she would be an important asset to the Democratic ticket -- if she really wants the second spot and if Obama can imagine working with her in the White House (with her husband hovering somewhere in the background).

Should that seem impossible, Obama remains obliged to consider the disappointment of women who backed Clinton as their gender's great hope. It will be hard for them to accept that progress toward equality is a zero-sum game in this election cycle. Among the female officials of rank and merit are Gov. Janet Napolitano of Arizona and Gov. Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas. Both endorsed Obama, but neither possesses the national security experience that he may regard as his ticket's most pressing need. Ranking women who do, such as Sen. Dianne Feinstein and Rep. Jane Harman, both California Democrats, differ substantially with him on important foreign-policy issues.

Democrats with the strongest military credentials include Sen. James Webb, the former Reagan Navy secretary who just might capture the electoral votes of his home state of Virginia, and Gen. Wesley K. Clark, who served as supreme commander of NATO during the Clinton administration. Both are decorated Vietnam veterans.

What Obama and McCain should remember as they draw up their lists is that many, if not all, successful vice-presidential nominees were chosen by instinct as much as by crass calculation. Bill Clinton chose Al Gore because he wanted to make a statement about generational change, but also because he thought they could govern well together. Al Gore chose Joe Lieberman to make a statement about Bill Clinton, a mistake he will always regret. George W. Bush chose Dick Cheney to buy himself a touch of badly needed gravitas. That choice didn't help him win the 2000 election, which he actually lost -- but Cheney certainly helped secure his legacy as one of history's worst presidents.

The lesson is to be bold as well as thoughtful -- and above all, to treat the vice presidency as a national trust and not a campaign gimmick.
LINK
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 10:27 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
Pennsylvania Gov. Edward G. Rendell, a Clinton supporter, disputed the notion that Mrs. Clinton's strong second-place finish gives her leverage on the all-but-certain nominee.

"There's no bargaining. You don't bargain with the presidential nominee. Even if you're Hillary Clinton and you have 18 million votes, you don't bargain," he said.
LINK

Ha, gotta love Rendell. The man is always marvellously off-message. In a good way :wink:
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 10:37 am
Joe Conason wrote:
So perhaps McCain, who will turn 72 just before his party's convention and looks even older, would do better with a young conservative governor like Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota or Bobby Jindal of Louisiana. The only problem with the youth gambit is that a political newcomer on the ticket would undermine his most compelling argument against Obama.


Yeah, I thought of that after I mentioned Jindal (on another thread, the McCain electability one I think). It'd be hard for McCain to talk about Obama's youth and inexperience as a negative if he's chosen a young inexperienced guy to be a heartbeat away from the presidency.

Quote:
But if McCain confronts quandaries, those faced by his rival are just as difficult. First, Obama must engage in a complex and challenging dance with Hillary Clinton, according her appropriate respect without allowing her to dominate the process. Current polling data indicates that she would be an important asset to the Democratic ticket -- if she really wants the second spot and if Obama can imagine working with her in the White House (with her husband hovering somewhere in the background).


Interesting observation about this on First Read today:

First Read wrote:
*** Polling Hillary for veep: Speaking of pollsÂ… Now that Clinton has set a date for her exit from the campaign, one thing Team Obama ought to be careful of is polling her for veep. Why? She's the most well known potential veep candidate, and so she's always going to look like she's a help to Obama. But that's due in large part to name recognition. The eventual running mate gets known quickly, and how the person is rolled out matters. Look at how Lieberman and Cheney -- both of whom were not well known nationally in 2000 -- were able to become instant assets because of how they were rolled out biographically. Neither one, however, would have popped in the polls in the beginning of the process.


Conason wrote:
Democrats with the strongest military credentials include Sen. James Webb, the former Reagan Navy secretary who just might capture the electoral votes of his home state of Virginia, and Gen. Wesley K. Clark, who served as supreme commander of NATO during the Clinton administration. Both are decorated Vietnam veterans.


Clark just doesn't have enough governmental experience. When paired with Kerry (who had experience up the wazoo), maybe. But he doesn't pair up well with Obama IMO.


(Agreed about Rendell, nimh! Didn't know much about him before this, keep appreciating one-liners from him.)
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 10:43 am
Webb, I like him for several reasons, but he has a somewhat checkered past and will prove to be a liability for Obama if he picks him...

Good: Webb will help with the Scotch-Irish vote
He's got military and foreign policy experience
Has a background as a centrist (used to be a Republican)
Will flip VA to Obama immediately
Tough bearing and strong public speaker

Bad: Used to be a Republican, checkered background
Has something of a temper
Not the best on equality issues
Only a first-term Senator, brings up the inexperience label
NOT on the right side of the FISA issue - and a few others, really

hmm. I still think he's on balance probably the best choice for Obama. Others in the progressive blogosphere seem to not like him, tho...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 10:46 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Webb, I like him for several reasons, but he has a somewhat checkered past and will prove to be a liability for Obama if he picks him...

Good: Webb will help with the Scotch-Irish vote
He's got military and foreign policy experience
Has a background as a centrist (used to be a Republican)
Will flip VA to Obama immediately
Tough bearing and strong public speaker

Bad: Used to be a Republican, checkered background
Has something of a temper
Not the best on equality issues
Only a first-term Senator, brings up the inexperience label
NOT on the right side of the FISA issue - and a few others, really

hmm. I still think he's on balance probably the best choice for Obama. Others in the progressive blogosphere seem to not like him, tho...

Cycloptichorn


So between them both, they would have how much experience in National Government positions?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 10:50 am
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Webb, I like him for several reasons, but he has a somewhat checkered past and will prove to be a liability for Obama if he picks him...

Good: Webb will help with the Scotch-Irish vote
He's got military and foreign policy experience
Has a background as a centrist (used to be a Republican)
Will flip VA to Obama immediately
Tough bearing and strong public speaker

Bad: Used to be a Republican, checkered background
Has something of a temper
Not the best on equality issues
Only a first-term Senator, brings up the inexperience label
NOT on the right side of the FISA issue - and a few others, really

hmm. I still think he's on balance probably the best choice for Obama. Others in the progressive blogosphere seem to not like him, tho...

Cycloptichorn


So between them both, they would have how much experience in National Government positions?


Well, I noticed you used the word 'national' in order to cut out Obama's decade of State Senatorship in Illinois. But, that's ridiculous, so we're going to go ahead and include that in Obama's resume. He's got a decade at that level and one term in the Senate.

Webb - A 1968 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, Webb served as a Marine Corps infantry officer until 1972, and is a highly decorated Vietnam War combat veteran. During his four years with the Reagan administration, Webb served as the first Assistant Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs, then as Secretary of the Navy.

So, it looks like about 6 for Webb and 14 or so for Obama. Not too bad.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 11:25 am
It's actually 12 but who really cares.

Illinois Senate 1996-2004

*
chairman, Health and Human Services Committee

United States Senate 2004-present

*
Member, Senate Foreign Relations Committee
*
Chairman, Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Affairs
*
Member, Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions
*
Member, Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
*
Member, Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs

http://obamasresume.org/
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 11:36 am
woiyo wrote:
It's actually 12 but who really cares.

Illinois Senate 1996-2004

*
chairman, Health and Human Services Committee

United States Senate 2004-present

*
Member, Senate Foreign Relations Committee
*
Chairman, Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Affairs
*
Member, Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions
*
Member, Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
*
Member, Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs

http://obamasresume.org/


Of course being a member isn't exactly the same thing as participating on a committee. Given the fairly large number of reports of Obama's absence, missed votes, etc., it is fairly obvious he hasn't been much involved on those committees since he started campaigning for President, and he has been campaigning since February 2007 giving him barely two years as a fully involved first term Senator.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 12:09 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Of course being a member isn't exactly the same thing as participating on a committee. Given the fairly large number of reports of Obama's absence, missed votes, etc., it is fairly obvious he hasn't been much involved on those committees since he started campaigning for President, and he has been campaigning since February 2007 giving him barely two years as a fully involved first term Senator.
Hardly anytime at all for the Washington Insiders to attempt to corrupt him. Isn't it great?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 12:13 pm
It does however give some credibility to accusations that he is inexperienced and unknowledgable about some of the areas he would like to claim more experience and knowledge. It also explains some of his deer in the headlight responses and gaffes when he is caught off guard and asked about some of those things.

McCain and Hillary are caught off guard a whole lot less.

Obama should choose a running mate that will compensate for at least some of his obvious inexperience and lack of knowledge.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 01:05 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
It does however give some credibility to accusations that he is inexperienced and unknowledgable about some of the areas he would like to claim more experience and knowledge. It also explains some of his deer in the headlight responses and gaffes when he is caught off guard and asked about some of those things.

McCain and Hillary are caught off guard a whole lot less.

Obama should choose a running mate that will compensate for at least some of his obvious inexperience and lack of knowledge.


Can you give an example of his 'deer in the headlight' moments? For, I think you are simply making that up.

Now, McCain - he has demonstrated several times that there are issues he knows next to nothing about... he's even admitted it out loud many times.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 01:13 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
It does however give some credibility to accusations that he is inexperienced and unknowledgable about some of the areas he would like to claim more experience and knowledge. It also explains some of his deer in the headlight responses and gaffes when he is caught off guard and asked about some of those things.

McCain and Hillary are caught off guard a whole lot less.

Obama should choose a running mate that will compensate for at least some of his obvious inexperience and lack of knowledge.


Can you give an example of his 'deer in the headlight' moments? For, I think you are simply making that up.

Now, McCain - he has demonstrated several times that there are issues he knows next to nothing about... he's even admitted it out loud many times.

Cycloptichorn


I don't know why I bother since you are so adament you don't need to defend anything you say. But here are a couple:

Quote:
(In May) in Cape Girardeau, Mo., Obama showed off his knowledge of the war in Afghanistan by homing in on a lack of translators: "We only have a certain number of them, and if they are all in Iraq, then it's harder for us to use them in Afghanistan." The real reason it's "harder for us to use them" in Afghanistan: Iraqis speak Arabic or Kurdish. The Afghanis speak Pashto, Farsi, or other non-Arabic languages.

(Also in May) in Oregon, Obama pleaded ignorance of the decades-old, multibillion-dollar massive Hanford nuclear-waste cleanup: "Here's something that you will rarely hear from a politician, and that is that I'm not familiar with the Hanford, uuuuhh, site, so I don't know exactly what's going on there. (Applause.) Now, having said that, I promise you I'll learn about it by the time I leave here on the ride back to the airport."

I assume on that ride, a staffer reminded him that he's voted on at least one defense-authorization bill that addressed the "costs, schedules, and technical issues" dealing with the nation's most contaminated nuclear-waste site?

DISPUTE THE FACTS IF YOU CAN
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 01:17 pm
Those aren't 'deer in the headlights' moments. Thanks for trying, though.

McCain, though:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/03/16/mccain-stumbles-on-hiv-prevention/

Quote:


Did he support the distribution of taxpayer-subsidized condoms in Africa to fight the transmission of H.I.V.?

What followed was a long series of awkward pauses, glances up to the ceiling and the image of one of Mr. McCain's aides, standing off to the back, urgently motioning his press secretary to come to Mr. McCain's side.


Et cetera, and if you ask him about the economy, it's worse by a lot.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 01:19 pm
Still defending Obama by bashing McCain? Tsk tsk. You're the one who needs to try harder.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 01:21 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Still defending Obama by bashing McCain? Tsk tsk. You're the one who needs to try harder.


I did say 'those aren't deer in the headlights' moments. That seems like a defense to me.

Well, but why bother bickering. You know which way this thing is going as well as I do, and it doesn't look promising for Grandpa John. Half your party is predicting doom this Fall and the other half are full of advice on how to fix it, but that advice pretty much comes up to 'more of the same.' Not going to get the job done.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 01:23 pm
I'm not bickering. I'm simply pointing out that this is an Obama thread, not a McCain thread. And your only defense seems to deny something without providing any foundation for the denial and to divert attention from your candidate to McCain. Is your Candidate really that tough to defend on his own merits?
0 Replies
 
 

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