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The Joe Horn Case: Murder or Not?

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 12:16 pm
cjhsa wrote:
Rolling Eyes


Two can play the emoticons game.

:wink: Rolling Eyes Laughing Shocked Twisted Evil Mr. Green Drunk 2 Cents
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 01:44 pm
Edgar, I'm so proud of you! Keep it up and you too can graduate from Funk U.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 02:05 pm
The great state of Texas wrote:
SUBCHAPTER D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY


§ 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person
in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is
justified in using force against another when and to the degree the
actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful
interference with the property.
(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible,
movable property by another is justified in using force against the
other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force
is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the
property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit
after the dispossession and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no
claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using
force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.


§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property
; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.


§ 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person
is justified in using force or deadly force against another to
protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if,
under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the
actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force
or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful
interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or
criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property
; or
(2) the actor reasonably believes that:
(A) the third person has requested his protection
of the land or property;
(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third
person's land or property; or
(C) the third person whose land or property he
uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent,
or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.
Anybody who thinks protecting property is no justification for the use of deadly force has a problem with Texas Law... not Joe Horn.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 02:09 pm
Like I said, give him a medal, a reward, and fire the 911 dispatcher.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 03:18 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
The great state of Texas wrote:
SUBCHAPTER D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY


§ 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person
in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is
justified in using force against another when and to the degree the
actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful
interference with the property.
(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible,
movable property by another is justified in using force against the
other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force
is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the
property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit
after the dispossession and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no
claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using
force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.


§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property
; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.


§ 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person
is justified in using force or deadly force against another to
protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if,
under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the
actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force
or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful
interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or
criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property
; or
(2) the actor reasonably believes that:
(A) the third person has requested his protection
of the land or property;
(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third
person's land or property; or
(C) the third person whose land or property he
uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent,
or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.
Anybody who thinks protecting property is no justification for the use of deadly force has a problem with Texas Law... not Joe Horn.






So....Texas enjoins murder and not just by the state.


What a surprise.


It's stil;l murder by any reasonable law.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 03:21 pm
Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 03:29 pm
dlowan wrote:

It's stil;l murder by any reasonable law.


It certainly is. If you read closely you will see that Joe did not abide by even that laxly written law.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 03:39 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
dlowan wrote:

It's stil;l murder by any reasonable law.


It certainly is. If you read closely you will see that Joe did not abide by even that laxly written law.


Ah well, it's kind of a tightening circle.....they used to exile people to America for stealing a loaf of bread......but there's progress!!! In Texas, they now support capital punishment for someone stealing a loaf of bread!
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 03:40 pm
dlowan wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
dlowan wrote:

It's stil;l murder by any reasonable law.


It certainly is. If you read closely you will see that Joe did not abide by even that laxly written law.


Ah well, it's kind of a tightening circle.....they used to exile people to America for stealing a loaf of bread......but there's progress!!! In Texas, they now support capital punishment for someone stealing a loaf of bread!


I would prefer 17 years on the galleys.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 03:43 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
dlowan wrote:

It's stil;l murder by any reasonable law.


It certainly is. If you read closely you will see that Joe did not abide by even that laxly written law.
How do you figure that? While figuring; keep in mind that Joe is entitled to EVERY benefit of the doubt and will be presumed innocent at every turn until proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 05:05 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
dlowan wrote:

It's stil;l murder by any reasonable law.


It certainly is. If you read closely you will see that Joe did not abide by even that laxly written law.
How do you figure that? While figuring; keep in mind that Joe is entitled to EVERY benefit of the doubt and will be presumed innocent at every turn until proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt.


I won't continue to argue the same points over and over. We shall see, if he gets indicted, which is where the case sits right now.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2008 05:24 pm
A Harris County grand jury has begun hearing evidence as it considers whether the 61-year-old retired grandfather should be indicted and face criminal charges, or be no-billed and have the case dismissed.

Lambright said he has not decided whether Horn should testify before the grand jury.

The panel could make a decision by the end of the week, a spokesman for the Harris County District Attorney's Office said.

Scott Durfee could not confirm anything about a possible grand jury presentation, including when or whether one was taking place, but said a resolution is "very likely by the end of the month" and "could be as early as the end of the week."
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jun, 2008 05:13 pm
A Harris County grand jury decided today that Joe Horn should not be charged with a crime for shooting two burglary suspects he confronted outside his neighbor's home in Pasadena last fall.

The decision to clear Horn of wrongdoing came two weeks after the grand jury began considering evidence in the case, including Horn's testimony last week.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2008 10:35 am
I don't understand why this was not determined to be premeditated murder.

He said during the 911 call that he was going to kill them and he did.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2008 11:36 am
Emotion trumps reason, in this case. I don't agree with it, either.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2008 11:41 am
Over 20 states have adopted a 'Castle Doctrine' although they are not identical.

I wonder if at some point there will be one Federal one.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2008 12:02 pm
Brand X wrote:
I don't understand why this was not determined to be premeditated murder.

He said during the 911 call that he was going to kill them and he did.
Quite simply, because what Joe did was not illegal under Texas Law, as I highlighted on the previous page. Anyone who doesn't like it, and it's certainly reasonable to not like it, should contact the Texas Legislation because they are ultimately responsible for giving Joe the Green Light.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2008 12:10 pm
It lies in how you want to interpret all the laws of Texas regarding the killings. The grand jury did not see it as cut and dried, else they would not have required two whole weeks to examine the case. My reading of all the information led me to conclude it was legally murder.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2008 01:00 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
It lies in how you want to interpret all the laws of Texas regarding the killings. The grand jury did not see it as cut and dried, else they would not have required two whole weeks to examine the case. My reading of all the information led me to conclude it was legally murder.
I wouldn't call it at all cut and dried either, Edgar. There is little doubt that Joe's actions were pre-meditated murder in most jurisdictions... but not clear in Texas. Joe sited the applicable law, and believed his actions to be within the legal guidelines... so it follows that a prosecutor would probably find it impossible to meet the burden of proof for premeditated murder. It doesn't much matter that people will read the law somewhat differently; the question is: Was Joe's interpretation of the Law reasonable. Could a reasonable person have interpreted the Law as Joe did? Yep. It doesn't matter if his actions were reasonable or just or necessary. Joe didn't knowingly commit murder, so Joe couldn't have committed a pre-meditated murder.

I think the issue here is whether stolen property is worth killing over. Texas says it is. Joe knew that, and agreed. Joe is entitled to every benefit of the doubt... on anything that isn't abundantly clear. Take away the Law quoted on the previous page; Joe is guilty as hell... but we don't (can't) know that Joe would have done what he did without it. I tend to doubt it since his every other action was pretty much by the book.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2008 01:07 pm
Whatever.
0 Replies
 
 

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